Figuring Out Religion

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 68 - The Apostles' Creed: First Article
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ox7rnco3p4fqw ... e.pdf?dl=0

Letter 69 - Creation
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6m9oyrovajy2x ... n.pdf?dl=0

Letter 70 - Creation by His Word
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4o6u1i7onclb ... d.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  Goodness, Suffering

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here is a 15 minute summary of Christianity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k82hreI ... l=Revfiskj

Published on Sep 2, 2014
Romans 13. A chapter so often abused by those in power. And misunderstood by those subject to those in power. Do we as Christians stand up and fight against an oppressive government? Or do we remain passive in the face of persecution by unjust rulers? What about a boss who is kind of a jerk? The answer, of course, is found in Christ. But as usual, many of us miss him in our standard reading of this chapter. Pastor Fisk helps us out though and gives some tough answers to tough questions as he takes on Romans 13:1-10 in today’s Greek Tuesday.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 71 - Preservation Through His Means
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jz2sscandkmrb ... s.pdf?dl=0

Letter 72 - Suffering
https://www.dropbox.com/s/un7owhbr66v5v ... g.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  Blessings, Two Natures in Christ, Satan


... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Some humor:

Requiem of Sorts
(With Most Profound Apologies to Messrs. Seeger and Luther)

Where have all the Gnostics gone, long time passing?
Where have all the Gnostics gone, long time ago?
Where have all the Gnostics gone?
Gone to Harvard, tenured all.
But lo, their doom is sure;
Their rage we shall–endure.

... Mountaineer

[Tortoise]

I know it's often tempting to think that world events are indicative of the Apocalypse, when in fact crazy stuff happens in almost every generation, but I saw a news headline today that really caught my attention:

"Vice President Biden promises to follow ISIS to 'gates of hell' as Muslims worldwide protest jihadist group"
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/o ... -1.1925836

Although U.S. political leaders in the past have often referred to enemy nations or ideologies as "evil" and referred to ourselves in terms of God, blessings, etc., I think this is the first time I've personally seen the phrase "gates of hell" in such a context. It's explicitly religious language, but even more than that, I think it's bordering on apocalyptic language since it's implying a hell-meets-earth situation.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread into a political discussion; I'd like to stay on the topic of religion. Does anyone have thoughts on Biden's "gates of hell" language from a religious perspective, or more general thoughts about how the conflict with IS and radical Islam in general may relate to the events described in the book of Revelation? Is World War III going to be a modern-day holy war?

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 73 - Apostles' Creed: Second Article
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5d5nrs5hf16ix ... e.pdf?dl=0

Letter 74 - Two Natures in Christ
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t6pve4gijmol6 ... t.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  Jesus fights and defeats the Devil - For You

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

I know it's often tempting to think that world events are indicative of the Apocalypse, when in fact crazy stuff happens in almost every generation, but I saw a news headline today that really caught my attention:

"Vice President Biden promises to follow ISIS to 'gates of hell' as Muslims worldwide protest jihadist group"
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/o ... -1.1925836

Although U.S. political leaders in the past have often referred to enemy nations or ideologies as "evil" and referred to ourselves in terms of God, blessings, etc., I think this is the first time I've personally seen the phrase "gates of hell" in such a context. It's explicitly religious language, but even more than that, I think it's bordering on apocalyptic language since it's implying a hell-meets-earth situation.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread into a political discussion; I'd like to stay on the topic of religion. Does anyone have thoughts on Biden's "gates of hell" language from a religious perspective, or more general thoughts about how the conflict with IS and radical Islam in general may relate to the events described in the book of Revelation? Is World War III going to be a modern-day holy war?

My interpretation of Biden's comment would be more along the lines of a mix of his Roman Catholic background and his tendency to exaggerate and desire to appear like he has his finger on the pulse of events - exactly of what is frequently the question.  Aside: Biden is from Delaware, my current state of residence, and has a reputation for being quite the "bumbling blowhard".  One of my friends has nicknamed him "Tail Gunner" for his tendency follow the herd instead of lead.  I'm completely speculating, but I expect his "gates of hell" comment is his way of trying to elicit support from the religious fringe hawks.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 75 - Jesus Fights the Devil
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb6tfyf03a4la ... l.pdf?dl=0

Letter 76 - Jesus in the Garden
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4d85phdt6qgo2 ... n.pdf?dl=0

Letter 77 - The Blessings of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oufy46bkby38l ... s.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  Crushing Satan, The Holy Spirit

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 78 - The Apostles' Creed: Third Article
https://www.dropbox.com/s/36dxrvioaqrmj ... e.pdf?dl=0

Letter 79 - The Holy Spirit Part 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8u8b979u76p3h ... t.pdf?dl=0

Letter 80 - The Holy Spirit Part 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0xboe3higfz63 ... 2.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  More on the Holy Spirit

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 81 - The Holy Spirit: The Conversation of Worship
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7nckjm1hcxvb ... 3.pdf?dl=0

Letter 82 - The Holy Spirit Made Simple
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f29wn4n13xea7 ... e.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  Heaven

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 83 - Heaven: The Work of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zbxvb9wcsyvj7 ... 1.pdf?dl=0

Letter 84 - Heaven: The Grace of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dpdemxi1yd3m ... 2.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  More on Heaven

... Mountaineer

[hljockey]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 83 - Heaven: The Work of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zbxvb9wcsyvj7 ... 1.pdf?dl=0

Letter 84 - Heaven: The Grace of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dpdemxi1yd3m ... 2.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  More on Heaven

... Mountaineer

I'm curious to know if anybody actually clicks on these links you are posting and even more curious to know if you think they do.

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 83 - Heaven: The Work of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zbxvb9wcsyvj7 ... 1.pdf?dl=0

Letter 84 - Heaven: The Grace of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dpdemxi1yd3m ... 2.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow:  More on Heaven

... Mountaineer

I'm curious to know if anybody actually clicks on these links you are posting and even more curious to know if you think they do.

Good questions, hljockey.  I have no way of knowing the exact answer to your first question.  I would say from the number of "hits" on the thread, it looks like maybe 30 to 100 are looking depending on the day.  As for the second question, it really does not matter what I think.  There are only a few more to go anyway.  I have faith that those that could benefit from seeing the linked material will see it.  Those that don't, won't.  Either way, it is in God's hands, not mine.  I'm just posting the material in case it may be of interest to some.  I thought the book was fascinating ... I can't imagine having this type of conversation with my dying father-in-law.  I thought the author did a really nice job of presenting the material in a non-threating and personalized way and I made a commitment to myself to share the Letters.  If no one is clicking on the links other than web bots, it does not matter to me personally.  I made the material available for those "with ears to hear".  Of course, your view may be different.  Again, good question; I've wondered the same thing as feedback, either positive or negative, has been really, really, sparce - actually, that is somewhat surprising to me since folks on the forum are usually ready to jump in with both feet to almost any type of topic.

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Here are the latest Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 85 - Heaven: You've Always Been Closer Than You Think
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fzuvrt4as98rc ... 3.pdf?dl=0

Letter 86 - Heaven: Positively
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p6wxaaivaad6c ... 4.pdf?dl=0

Letter 87 - Getting to Heaven: The Tribulation
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zj6jthc1sfax8 ... n.pdf?dl=0

Letter 88 - Getting to Heaven: The Resurrection
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb3lalzpy5f2t ... 2.pdf?dl=0


Tomorrow: Judgment Day, The Blessed Reunion

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

These are the last two Letters by Pastor Preus to his dying Father-In-Law and family.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 89 - Getting to Heaven: Judgment Day
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vub61qc68at3v ... y.pdf?dl=0

Letter 90 - Getting to Heaven: Blessed Reunion
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6j2atebvtjaqq ... n.pdf?dl=0

Epilogue - Evangelism Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yx6v5d3au65yy ... s.pdf?dl=0

Topical Index
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfxgr0pye0pk2 ... x.pdf?dl=0

I hope these Letters benefited you in some way.  For me, they were a vivid example of caring for others, courage, perseverance, and above all, how Christ is involved in all our lives, believers and non-believers alike, from before we existed to after we leave this earth.  It truly is a blessing to hear the "Good News" - it changes lives; I know it did for me.


... Mountaineer

[dualstow]

This seems like the right thread to mention that I've just seen the Book of Mormon show.
Hiliarious.

[Mountaineer]

Craig Parton discusses  making the case for the reliability of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.  The talk is about one hour long and is in mp3 format.  This material would be helpful for believers who want to be able to discuss the reliability of Scripture with non-believing friends or for non-believers who are curious about the subject.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y984y9al61ujj ... 1.mp3?dl=0

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

BTW, Mountaineer...

I really hope my banter about who we allow in isn't rubbing you the wrong way.  If I'm going to hell then I'm going to hell.  Nothing wrong with truth-telling, and if I AM going to hell, I should be grateful to folks like you trying your darnedest to prevent it .

I just think it invites a certain potential for madness.  Just like allowing red-heads in does, even though I love me some red-heads sometimes.



Guys I'm really raw today... anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt and some forgiveness .

[Mountaineer]

BTW, Mountaineer...

I really hope my banter about who we allow in isn't rubbing you the wrong way.  If I'm going to hell then I'm going to hell.  Nothing wrong with truth-telling, and if I AM going to hell, I should be grateful to folks like you trying your darnedest to prevent it .

I just think it invites a certain potential for madness.  Just like allowing red-heads in does, even though I love me some red-heads sometimes.



Guys I'm really raw today... anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt and some forgiveness .

Moda,

You are always forgiven.  And no, your banter is not striking me the wrong way even though I have two red-headed grandchildren.    Your statement just struck me as "illogical" and I was trying to understand where you were coming from.  I agree, those on the fringes of the bell curve can be problematic, but they also make life interesting; and if you reduce the fringes, there will always be new fringes by definition - what to do about them?  How would you view your statement about who should be let in to the US if you were here 200 years ago?  If differently than you answer it now, why is that?  What has changed?  God is still God and always has been and always will be ... it seems to me it is He you wish to argue with, not those of us who just are telling you what He says.  If you are over your rawness in a while, I would like to understand more about your view.

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

BTW, Mountaineer...

I really hope my banter about who we allow in isn't rubbing you the wrong way.  If I'm going to hell then I'm going to hell.  Nothing wrong with truth-telling, and if I AM going to hell, I should be grateful to folks like you trying your darnedest to prevent it .

I just think it invites a certain potential for madness.  Just like allowing red-heads in does, even though I love me some red-heads sometimes.



Guys I'm really raw today... anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt and some forgiveness .

Moda,

You are always forgiven.  And no, your banter is not striking me the wrong way even though I have two red-headed grandchildren.    Your statement just struck me as "illogical" and I was trying to understand where you were coming from.  I agree, those on the fringes of the bell curve can be problematic, but they also make life interesting; and if you reduce the fringes, there will always be new fringes by definition - what to do about them?  How would you view your statement about who should be let in to the US if you were here 200 years ago?  If differently than you answer it now, why is that?  What has changed?  God is still God and always has been and always will be ... it seems to me it is He you wish to argue with, not those of us who just are telling you what He says.  If you are over your rawness in a while, I would like to understand more about your view.

... Mountaineer

Nope... I'm arguing with those who are trying to tell me what He says.  I can't argue with someone who hasn't posed a clear argument, or hasn't even shown himself to me to even exist.  I can argue against the assertions written in the Bible.  I can argue with against the assertions of other individuals capable of making assertions.

If God wishes to pose an argument for his existence, or that I will go to hell, I'm right here.  He can speak or write it to me.  So far all I have is the assertions of the Bible and religious folks.  So I have to argue with them.  Usually I manage too pretty respectfully.

I'm being pretty sarcastic with my supposed question.  If we would've done that 200 years ago, we probably wouldn't have a country... but perhaps a lot of the guys wanting to enforce slavery were the same dudes ascribing hell to those they disagree with, and we could have had more Tom Paine's and fewer John Calhouns.  I don't know.  I just know what I know now... 1) We've got plenty of people in this country... no dire need for a ton more.  2) We have bombs that can level cities, and 3) we have religious beliefs that tend to view non-believers as heathens and their death as acceptable in the grand scheme of things... since they'll spend eternity in hell, no harm in hastening the trip by an infinitely smaller period of time.

My main reasoning for this lies in the severity of the impact of our weapons today vs any other time in history.  I'd have much less concern about Islamic immigration at modest levels if we didn't have nukes.

[Mountaineer]

You have definitly been hanging with Christians that have a different understanding than I do.  For us LCMS dudes, Scripture interprets Scripture, not me interpreting it.  So, with that understanding, you are arguing with God, not me.  I just try, unsuccessfully much or most of the time, to tell you what it says.  I know that is a fine line and hard to understand, but I am just as concerned about the "fire and brimstone" types or the "you will have a Rolls in your garage if you just do such and such, and of course, send me money" types as you are. 

Hang in there bro,  that candle may turn into a full blown spotlight one of these days. 

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

You have definitly been hanging with Christians that have a different understanding than I do.  For us LCMS dudes, Scripture interprets Scripture, not me interpreting it.  So, with that understanding, you are arguing with God, not me.  I just try, unsuccessfully much or most of the time, to tell you what it says.  I know that is a fine line and hard to understand, but I am just as concerned about the "fire and brimstone" types or the "you will have a Rolls in your garage if you just do such and such, and of course, send me money" types as you are. 

Hang in there bro,  that candle may turn into a full blown spotlight one of these days. 

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer,

What you're saying, politely, is just simply false. 

I'm not talking about "fire and brimstone" folks.  ALL statements need to be interpreted to some degree.  You INTERPRET scripture as the 100% true Word of God rather than just blatherings of random people in our past (some true and some made up).  Even if the messages needed no more interpretation than that, you're still doing a level of interpretation on the originator of the message being sent, and the historical accuracy of the message.

So to the degree that you interpret and ASSERT that the Bible is the 100% true Word of a God, I must argue with YOU.. the only one proven to me to actually exist.  To the degree that the Bible, as a document written/typed by human-beings that makes historcal assertions, asserts that certain things HAVE happened in the past that certainly appear to NOT have happened that way, I am arguing with the assertions of the Bible.  Perhaps they ARE the Word of God, but he is not answering my arguments.  To that end, I must argue with those who are defending the bible as 100% true.  It is possible that there is a God, and he just lied at a lot of points when directing men how to write the Bible about what happened for the utilitarian purpose of keeping people in line.  He hasn't taken the time to explain to me why he'd never do that, independent of the words of the Bible itself, which we can't automatically ASSUME is not filled with lies, even if it IS the Word of God.

Further, nowhere is it self-evident nor even remotely close to proven that the Bible is the 100% true Word of God, nor that God even exists.  So it can't be said without first coming to that massive conclusion that I'm arguing with God.  Further, one more point of disagreement would be that the Bible, even IF we were to agree that it is the 100% true Word of God, does NOT need to be interpreted.  Though it may not be required to go to heaven, we certainly may wish to act in the way God wants us to act.  To that end, it would be great to know if he really doesn't want us to eat shrimp, or how hard I can beat my slaves, how long I can hold them, etc.

Sorry... a little sarcasm on that last part.

[Mountaineer]

You have definitly been hanging with Christians that have a different understanding than I do.  For us LCMS dudes, Scripture interprets Scripture, not me interpreting it.  So, with that understanding, you are arguing with God, not me.  I just try, unsuccessfully much or most of the time, to tell you what it says.  I know that is a fine line and hard to understand, but I am just as concerned about the "fire and brimstone" types or the "you will have a Rolls in your garage if you just do such and such, and of course, send me money" types as you are. 

Hang in there bro,  that candle may turn into a full blown spotlight one of these days. 

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer,

What you're saying, politely, is just simply false. 

I'm not talking about "fire and brimstone" folks.  ALL statements need to be interpreted to some degree.  You INTERPRET scripture as the 100% true Word of God rather than just blatherings of random people in our past (some true and some made up).  Even if the messages needed no more interpretation than that, you're still doing a level of interpretation on the originator of the message being sent, and the historical accuracy of the message.

So to the degree that you interpret and ASSERT that the Bible is the 100% true Word of a God, I must argue with YOU.. the only one proven to me to actually exist.  To the degree that the Bible, as a document written/typed by human-beings that makes historcal assertions, asserts that certain things HAVE happened in the past that certainly appear to NOT have happened that way, I am arguing with the assertions of the Bible.  Perhaps they ARE the Word of God, but he is not answering my arguments.  To that end, I must argue with those who are defending the bible as 100% true.  It is possible that there is a God, and he just lied at a lot of points when directing men how to write the Bible about what happened for the utilitarian purpose of keeping people in line.  He hasn't taken the time to explain to me why he'd never do that, independent of the words of the Bible itself, which we can't automatically ASSUME is not filled with lies, even if it IS the Word of God.

Further, nowhere is it self-evident nor even remotely close to proven that the Bible is the 100% true Word of God, nor that God even exists.  So it can't be said without first coming to that massive conclusion that I'm arguing with God.  Further, one more point of disagreement would be that the Bible, even IF we were to agree that it is the 100% true Word of God, does NOT need to be interpreted.  Though it may not be required to go to heaven, we certainly may wish to act in the way God wants us to act.  To that end, it would be great to know if he really doesn't want us to eat shrimp, or how hard I can beat my slaves, how long I can hold them, etc.

Sorry... a little sarcasm on that last part.

Moderators - note - can you move this thread?

We should really continue this in the religion thread.  We have done enough of a hijack on this for now.  When one of the Mods moves it, I will respond.  In the meantime, think about the presuppositions that you are firmly holding that make you so certain about what you are saying - it seems it would be best best to get them into the open and identify them or we will never be able to move forward on this topic.

Peace, brother! 

... Mountaineer

[moda0306]

Guys I'm really raw today... anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt and some forgiveness .

And that's different than every other day in what manner?   

You really need to go do some serious study regarding the history of the Bible and the Christian religion.  There is some really compelling evidence compiled, and you seem to be unaware of all of it. 

Step it up, Moda.  You're just believing the lowest view possible, slung from the cheap seats of the world.  Next thing we know, you'll be watching the 700 club and forwarding conspiracy emails to your younger relatives while you're watching Matlock on your old tube TV.  Step it up, get with the times man. 

Desert (and Mountaineer),

If there is a compelling book, article, etc on the actual evidence that the divine aspects of either Christianity in general or every aspect of the Bible are true, I'd love to see it.  I'd preferably like a debate, but the last one I read was not very persuasive. The articles posted here, Mountaineer, I'm sorry to say, are hardly persuasive. Those letters build arguments for positions very poorly, IMO.

Also, if there is so much evidence, why isn't that evidence used more often in debate?  It seems like you want ME to go out and find the evidence that YOU should be providing as a person making an assertion that you want me to believe.

But for the most part, I don't know what you want from me...

You are just believing the lowest view possible, slung from the cheap seats of the world.

What does this even mean?  I only believe things to the degree I can observe them, or that others either use a scientific process or logical process to conclude, and state those processes openly for others to review.

This is the only process we have unless we are to believe some other sort of subjective experience we are having. I am having no such experience telling me of God's existence.  All I have is various other people making what appear to me to be arbitrary statements about divine reality. Some are Christians. Some are Muslims. Some are Scientologists. There are others. They aren't using logic or reason. They aren't using empirical evidence. They aren't using the scientific method. They're just telling me things.

Is that the lowest view?  What cheap seats are you talking about?  I really don't know what you mean. Can you give me a better view on how I should interpret reality? If I accept statements as true that haven't used an objective method of proof, aren't I opening myself up to a massive amount of arbitrary statements that I all of a sudden have to put my faith in?


I don't get what you mean with the rest. Get with the times?  Conspiracy theories?



Mountaineer, you asked me about presuppositions I hold that make me certain. I'm not certain of much. My presuppositions are that logic and the scientific method should be used to discover the truth, or at least organize our thoughts on the nature of reality.

I am not certain that there is no God.

I am not certain that Jesus is not the son of God.

I'm not certain that the Bible isn't the 100% true Word of God.

I am not certain that following Christ is not the path to a heaven.

I'm not certain that there is no hell.


There are a TON of other things I'm not certain of. All I have is objective, material reality, as well as my own subjective feelings and experiences that either align or don't align with that objective reality, to determine what is real. I can't just accept every possible reality as actually being so. I need a system for deciding what is most likely real and relevant.

Perhaps all of material reality is one big myth and this all means nothing.  Perhaps the Bible is true.

But I'm not arguing with God unless the Bible is the actual Word of God. So far, human beings are the only ones presenting the Bible to me as reality. God hasn't revealed his existence to me in a clear manner, much less overtly made the argument to me that the Bible is His Word.

If you think anything I'm saying is way off, please set me straight. But remember, anything you say to me will probably ring somewhat hollow unless it follows a certain logical path, offers solid empirical evidence that leads to its conclusions, or at least just explains your subjective experience as subjective.  To clarify just a tad more... Simply stating unproven non-empirical religious assertions doesn't help me ascertain reality anymore than telling me that there's unicorns in another galaxy's planet frolicking around. I hope you understand why I can't just go through life believing everything that is stated to me as truth.  I have to have a system of telling truth from fiction. My system is logic and the scientific method.  I think it works pretty well.

[Pointedstick]

What you are missing, moda, is Revelation.

Unfortunately, I don't know what it is either. But it seems to be a really crucial thing to believers. My father-in-law had a revelatory experience as a younger man that convinced him to reorganize his entire life and become a minister. He's a man I greatly respect, and he's shared his recollection of the experience to me. I gather that it was quite profound; a moment that changed everything and gave him clarity and insight during a dark time.

However, from a rationalist perspective, it could probably be argued that it was a near-hallucinogenic experience caused by his brain rebelling against the bad choices he had made and their awful consequences that were coming home to roost. I have also known other peoplein my life who have claimed to experience Revelation when they were at a particularly low point in their lives. So the fact that these things really do seem to happen doesn't automatically convince me that people are touched by God when it could be that their brains are using culturally familiar reference points to force a radical change in behavior following a string of disastrously bad decisions.

Have there ever been any people to have experienced Revelation when they were already happy and content with their lives?