This guy wants to give you 1300 a month

[doodle]

On the right track....eventually we will get there:

http://m.vice.com/read/a-german-guy-wan ... e=vicefbus

[Pointedstick]

What would happen if we didn't have to worry about making a living anymore? Would people just sit on their asses all day or actually do something meaningful with their lives? Michael Bohmeyer, a 29-year-old founder of a tech startup in Berlin, wanted to find out.

After he stopped working earlier this year to live off the $1,300 he makes from his startup each month, Bohmeyer says his life has radically changed.

Well that's really the big question, isn't it?

I would humbly suggest that a 29-year old startup entrepreneur may not be the most representative individual. Certainly some people would be like him, and Mr Money Mustache, and ERE Jacob, but how many people really would just sit on their asses and do nothing? Determining that proportion, or perhaps somehow being able to accurately model a person's relative propensity to do nothing useful with their lives would be a useful addition, I think.

[doodle]

Well, I personally think that basic  food, clothing, shelter, can be provided to everyone in our society with little sacrifice or difficulty. Health care could be provided as well on a rationed basis. We are rich and productive enough to provide this to everyone. If someone wanted more than this then they would have to go out and earn it

[Tortoise]

Well, I personally think that basic  food, clothing, shelter, can be provided to everyone in our society with little sacrifice or difficulty. Health care could be provided as well on a rationed basis. We are rich and productive enough to provide this to everyone. If someone wanted more than this then they would have to go out and earn it

A lot of people prioritize drugs, "bling," and various other things over clothing, shelter, and food. Some people will make sure they get their fix--whatever it is--even before their kids get the food and clothes they need. That means they'll likely sell or trade a good portion of this hypothetical free government-supplied food and clothing to get that fix.

Priorities are extremely important. With the right priorities, people can often lift themselves and their families out of some seemingly dire situations. With the wrong priorities, people can manage to keep themselves mired in poverty and filth almost regardless of how much assistance they receive.

I'm not saying nobody would benefit from your proposed free food, clothing, and shelter. I'm just saying you might be surprised at the large number of poor people who would remain in poverty in spite of it.

[Benko]

Well, I personally think that basic  food, clothing, shelter, can be provided to everyone in our society with little sacrifice or difficulty. Health care could be provided as well on a rationed basis. We are rich and productive enough to provide this to everyone. If someone wanted more than this then they would have to go out and earn it

As someone who used to provide some of my medical services for no cost, I can tell you that what people don't have to pay for, they don't take seriously (which is why I now make people pay even if only $1).  And I suspect that providing food clothing and shelter for free would fuck up people's motivation.  But perhaps we should have already learned that lesson?  Don't misunderstand, I would certainly prefer that everyone have food clothing and shelter but I would also prefer a thriving society where people are motivated to produce advances in e.g. medicine, technology, etc. and not a society of people with little movitation.

Doodle I applaud your desire to do good, but how has what you suggest worked out in the past when it has been tried?
The desire to "do good" seems to wind up happening "by any mean necessary" and result in unintended consequences from hell.  But I'm sure this time will be different.

[WildAboutHarry]

One evening as the sun went down
And the jungle fires were burning,
Down the track came a hobo hiking,
And he said, "Boys, I'm not turning
I'm headed for a land that's far away
Besides the crystal fountains
So come with me, we'll go and see
The Big Rock Candy Mountains

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.
Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
All the cops have wooden legs
And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth
And the hens lay soft-boiled eggs
The farmers' trees are full of fruit
And the barns are full of hay
Oh I'm bound to go
Where there ain't no snow
Where the rain don't fall
The winds don't blow
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains
You never change your socks
And the little streams of alcohol
Come trickling down the rocks
The brakemen have to tip their hats
And the railway bulls are blind
There's a lake of stew
And of whiskey too
You can paddle all around it
In a big canoe
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

In the Big Rock Candy Mountains,
The jails are made of tin.
And you can walk right out again,
As soon as you are in.
There ain't no short-handled shovels,
No axes, saws nor picks,
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day,
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
....
I'll see you all this coming fall
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains

[clacy]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

[doodle]

What would happen if we didn't have to worry about making a living anymore? Would people just sit on their asses all day or actually do something meaningful with their lives? Michael Bohmeyer, a 29-year-old founder of a tech startup in Berlin, wanted to find out.

After he stopped working earlier this year to live off the $1,300 he makes from his startup each month, Bohmeyer says his life has radically changed.

Well that's really the big question, isn't it?

I would humbly suggest that a 29-year old startup entrepreneur may not be the most representative individual. Certainly some people would be like him, and Mr Money Mustache, and ERE Jacob, but how many people really would just sit on their asses and do nothing? Determining that proportion, or perhaps somehow being able to accurately model a person's relative propensity to do nothing useful with their lives would be a useful addition, I think.

How many people are doing something "useful" now?  What is the definition of useful?  Who decides what is useful?

It seems funny to me that, on the one hand, Americans devote so much time to making their lives easier, and yet, if we see people utilizing the existence of ease, we vilify them for it.

"progress" is another one of those nonsense words like "useful" that people like to throw around. This is what "useful"' and "progress" looks like to me.....causing this:



So that we can have this:



Millions of people slaving away destroying rainforest and some of the worlds most amazing creatures so that Mr. Chanel can get the ingredients he needs to sell us this stupid stuff to smear on our lips.

[Mountaineer]

TennPaGa,

You might want to also split my last post.  I posted before I saw there was a new thread on evolution.  Sorry.

... Mountaineer

[Kshartle]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

[Mountaineer]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

Kshartle, by the power and gifts I graciously received from (shhhh, I don't want to upset doodle again) I hearby give you the "hoot of the day" award. 

... Mountaineer

[Benko]

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

Just for you (thought of you when I ran across this earlier):

Andrew Klavan: Income Redistribution
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUuDw6-sUes

[doodle]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

Let's just take that to the extreme...

If things become more and more efficient so that one producer is able to produce enough for everyone and outstrip natures ability to replenish itself (fish the oceans barren, cut down all the trees, etc etc.) then how do things work?

I think we are kind of experiencing a bit of a breakdown for a variety of reasons:


1. Our production of material goods is pushing the limits of nature

2. Greater efficiency means less labor is needed per unit of production. Should we try to increase production to increase employment we run into problem 1.

3. The system is evolving faster than the average human can keep up with. I consider myself pretty slow compared to a lot of the people I interact with at work and in school, but I recently took an IQ test and scored a 132 which places me way above the median. I cannot imagine what the world must look like to someone on the left hand side of the bell curve.

[barrett]

When I see the title of this thread all I can think about is that our little family of three spends about $1000 a month on groceries alone. So we need the $1300 a month plus at lest one well-paying job.

[Kshartle]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

Let's just take that to the extreme...

If things become more and more efficient so that one producer is able to produce enough for everyone and outstrip natures ability to replenish itself (fish the oceans barren, cut down all the trees, etc etc.) then how do things work?

If one person can do all the work to feed, clothe and shelter everyone else......we'll have plenty of time to figure out how to avoid getting every fish and cutting down every tree.

Imagine being the guy who cuts down the last tree. What a dick.

[Kshartle]

When I see the title of this thread all I can think about is that our little family of three spends about $1000 a month on groceries alone. So we need the $1300 a month plus at lest one well-paying job.

Maybe we need fewer trees occupying nice farmland that could be used to drop the cost of food.

[Pointedstick]

When I see the title of this thread all I can think about is that our little family of three spends about $1000 a month on groceries alone. So we need the $1300 a month plus at lest one well-paying job.

For that amount of money, I certainly hope you're eating steak and lobster every night!

[clacy]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

Let's just take that to the extreme...

If things become more and more efficient so that one producer is able to produce enough for everyone and outstrip natures ability to replenish itself (fish the oceans barren, cut down all the trees, etc etc.) then how do things work? That is a big assumption that I believe is no where remotely close to being true.  "IF" is the key word in your sentence.

I think we are kind of experiencing a bit of a breakdown for a variety of reasons:


1. Our production of material goods is pushing the limits of nature This has been said for decades if not longer, yet there is always something that can be done to help be productive.  Are you telling me that there is no more productivity possible in health care, education, building infrastructure, etc?

2. Greater efficiency means less labor is needed per unit of production. Should we try to increase production to increase employment we run into problem 1.

3. The system is evolving faster than the average human can keep up with. I consider myself pretty slow compared to a lot of the people I interact with at work and in school, but I recently took an IQ test and scored a 132 which places me way above the median. I cannot imagine what the world must look like to someone on the left hand side of the bell curve.  Fair point.  There has to be a way for people to EARN a living.  IMO, I would rather the government take 85% of what is currently invested in welfare (for those under say 70) and invest that money in a large scale jobs program.  I don't see why those that need money from the government can't at least add a small amount of productivity to the world.

[Mountaineer]

Do we not already have this?  We have so many welfare programs, you cannot name them all.  I see able bodied, 20-somethings in convenience stores with EBT cards all the time. Looks to me like they're getting free money.   

Section 8 housing (+7 other HUD programs), Food stamps, medicaid, free school lunches (and breakfast and dinner now), free cell phones, head start, Pell grants....

That's just the means tested programs plus you have social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, etc that we can take part of.

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

Let's just take that to the extreme...

If things become more and more efficient so that one producer is able to produce enough for everyone and outstrip natures ability to replenish itself (fish the oceans barren, cut down all the trees, etc etc.) then how do things work?

I think we are kind of experiencing a bit of a breakdown for a variety of reasons:


1. Our production of material goods is pushing the limits of nature

2. Greater efficiency means less labor is needed per unit of production. Should we try to increase production to increase employment we run into problem 1.

3. The system is evolving faster than the average human can keep up with. I consider myself pretty slow compared to a lot of the people I interact with at work and in school, but I recently took an IQ test and scored a 132 which places me way above the median. I cannot imagine what the world must look like to someone on the left hand side of the bell curve.

This is sounding like Malthus redux.  And, on a side note, doodle, I'm really sorry your IQ score was so low.  I too wonder what the world must look like to someone on the left hand side of the bell curve ... could you please PM me and let me know.  Thanks. 

... Mountaineer

[doodle]

Clacy you teabagging, conservative, bible thumping, stoneage, meany face!

Everyone knows it's a fact that we just need some more wealth redistribution scemes/scams to get us to nirvana.

We are almost there. I know the middle class is shrinking and real incomes are falling but look, that's because not enough is being taken from producers and given to non-producers. We really need to hard core increase the theft so the the producers will work harder to replace it. Nevermind that many of them will just stop trying. The ones that remain will work harder to make up the difference.

We are almost there. I can see it now....."It's a basic human right to have a human slave" will be our slogon. Rock solid, contradiction-free logic there.

Let's just take that to the extreme...

If things become more and more efficient so that one producer is able to produce enough for everyone and outstrip natures ability to replenish itself (fish the oceans barren, cut down all the trees, etc etc.) then how do things work? That is a big assumption that I believe is no where remotely close to being true.  "IF" is the key word in your sentence.

I think we are kind of experiencing a bit of a breakdown for a variety of reasons:


1. Our production of material goods is pushing the limits of nature This has been said for decades if not longer, yet there is always something that can be done to help be productive.  Are you telling me that there is no more productivity possible in health care, education, building infrastructure, etc? increases in productivity means producing the same amount of goods and services with less labor....aka higher unemployment. As far as nature, we are placing a great deal of stress on our ecosystem and outstripping its ability to replenish itself.

2. Greater efficiency means less labor is needed per unit of production. Should we try to increase production to increase employment we run into problem 1.

3. The system is evolving faster than the average human can keep up with. I consider myself pretty slow compared to a lot of the people I interact with at work and in school, but I recently took an IQ test and scored a 132 which places me way above the median. I cannot imagine what the world must look like to someone on the left hand side of the bell curve.  Fair point.  There has to be a way for people to EARN a living.  IMO, I would rather the government take 85% of what is currently invested in welfare (for those under say 70) and invest that money in a large scale jobs program.  I don't see why those that need money from the government can't at least add a small amount of productivity to the world. Maybe for taking care of their children or tending to dying relatives....a lot of productive work goes uncompensated in our system

[Mountaineer]

Do you think Hillary would settle for $1300 a month, week, day, hour, minute, second?  I am so very enamored with "real" people!

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-v ... ary-travel

... Mountaineer

[WildAboutHarry]

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton answers questions during the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries' annual conference at the Mandalay Bay hotel-casino on Thursday, April 10

Anyone who has to speak at the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries annual conference deserves High Fashion and High Expense.

[stone]

Have you guys seen this study that does provide evidence of the efficacy of universal basic income arrangements -at any rate in terms of reducing delinquency to such an extent that it saved more than the payments cost:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... blogs&_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049729/

“The natural experiment consisted of an income supplement given to every member of the Eastern Band of Cherokees when a casino was opened on their reservation in 1996. Every tribal member receives a percentage of the casino’s profits, paid every 6 months. Children’s earnings are paid into a bank account held for them until age 18. By 2006 the payment was around $9,000 a year.”?





I also thought this was an interesting article: http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5066.html

In effect, the state could provide venture capital to the people. If ordinary citizens had a small but reliable annuity, too modest to live comfortably but enough to prevent destitution, then at the margin, we’d expect people who currently seek or accept unfulfilling, underpaid work to opt for entrepreneurship, or education, or art, or child-rearing, or just hold out for a better gig. “VC for the people”? would combine a reduction in labor supply with a lot of new labor demand, forcing employers to increase wages and encouraging substitution of capital for the least desirable jobs. Both the wage effect and the annuity itself would increase the share of national income available to those without direct claims on capital, reducing inequality. In his talk, Summers mused (wonderfully) that he’d prefer we not evolve to an economy in which people are employed providing increasingly marginal services to the rich, working as specialized “knee masseurs”? and the like. A straightforward way to preclude that is to ensure that everyone has the means to refuse those jobs and take chances on more meaningful and ultimately more valuable work.

“VC for the people”? would reduce market discipline, but it would certainly not eliminate it. People do not require the threat of destitution to cultivate ambition. It is much better to supplement ones modest annuity with a vigorous market income than to crouch inertly in a hovel. Most people (like most of you, my not-nearly-destitute readers) will still try hard to achieve economic success. It’s just that people who have options are much more likely to actually find success than people who don’t.

“VC for the people”? has a more common name. It is called a universal basic income. Properly implemented, it is not means-tested and carries no disincentive to earn. It is inflationary via increased purchasing power of ordinary people, the best kind of inflation, especially desirable in disinflationary times. Its level is a policy instrument and need not be indexed to prices. If it “works too well”?, positive interest rates can tamp down spending, and, presto, no more secular stagnation.