Figuring Out Religion

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle »

Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: doodle,

You may wish to change your Signature line by Blaise Pascal.  I'm assuming you do know that among his multitude of talents, he was a Christian apologetics guy?  Perhaps something by the Diest Thomas Paine, or the atheist Christopher Hitchens would be more appropriate.  ;)

http://issuesetc.org/2014/08/11/2-the-w ... rde-81114/

... Mountaineer
Yes, kind of ironic...considering that I have taken Pascal's wager and turned it on its head.
doodle,

This is an interesting article about atheism that you may have interest in reading - and I'm not being sarcastic.  It gives a brief summary of some atheism history.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... f-atheism/

Here is the intro, check the link for the full deal.

Atheists are always invoking science, but notice how often their arguments and rhetoric use political language.  God allegedly “oppresses”? human beings, taking away their “freedom.”?  They say that God is “immoral,”? that, in the words of John Lennon, if we imagine no religion, “the world would live as one.”?
In fact, as Nick Spencer shows in Politico, the origins of atheism in the West had little to do with the rise of science; rather, it grew out of radical political movements.


... Mountaineer
I'm completely agnostic on the topic of God. I have not personally experienced his presence and there is no way I know of finding proof of his existence. However, if God is as the bible portrays him then I would be anti-God as I am unable to love and respect a being that behaves in that way.....and God only has himself to blame that I feel this way. I am incapable of loving a vindictive, ego-maniacal being that condemns the greater part of humanity to eternal hellfire. I have a problem with condemning a murderer to life in prison, let alone a decent honest person to eternity in hell.

Now, on the subject of grace, I found this little talk by Alan Watts (who was an Anglican minister for many years and achieved a master degree in divinity) quite enlightening. He has a rambling style (probably because he lectured drunk most of the time) but he really touches on some interesting issues that are relevant to our discussion: http://youtu.be/9bB5X5vzbSY
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 14 - Was the Grave Empty?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ea4uqhhfldg1k ... pty%3F.pdf

Letter 15 - Where Did the Body Go?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3oaofyhq2rm91 ... 0Go%3F.pdf

Letter 16 - Why Steal Jesus' Body?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hcu8ujwxmna5t ... ody%3F.pdf

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

This is an excellent site for comparing world religions.  Be sure to check out the "pick up to three" and click go to see details of what you picked to compare.

http://www.patheos.com/Library#

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 17 - Was the Body Misplaced?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4fvxy81je5kxc ... ced%3F.pdf

Letter 18 - Did Jesus Really Die?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ak6gdje5e2oz4 ... Die%3F.pdf

Letter 19 - Why Don't People Believe?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvswh0j5sbdr5 ... eve%3F.pdf

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by moda0306 »

Re: #19, and others, here's an interesting debate between two men on the possibility/likelihood of the resurrection of Christ:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-there ... aig-ehrman
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by moda0306 »

Desert wrote:
moda0306 wrote: Re: #19, and others, here's an interesting debate between two men on the possibility/likelihood of the resurrection of Christ:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-there ... aig-ehrman
Moda, thanks for posting this debate.  I like William Lane Craig a lot.  I got a chance to hear him in person last year. 

What did you think of the arguments?  Or are you too busy going to church right now to answer?  :)
Desert,

I honestly haven't read more than 5% of it, but it wreaked of a thoughtful, good-faith (not that kind of faith)  :) debate.

Didn't have time to read the whole thing.

Just thought I'd post it and if I was wrong learn my instincts were wrong about what a good debate looked like.
Last edited by moda0306 on Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Men did not make the earth. It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property. Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds."

- Thomas Paine
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Desert wrote: I think it was a pretty good debate.  I think Craig won, but I'm biased! 

I think debates like these rarely convert someone from one opinion to another, but for someone just wanting to learn, I think they're useful.  And Craig is a really sharp guy.
I concur.

This is the second time I read that debate .. the first was a few years ago; I too am biased but I thought Craig had more evidence - Ehrman seemed to get a bit flustered at times.  I purchased a set of DVDs a few years ago from the Teaching Company that featured Bart Ehrman and Amy Jill ? (a Jewish woman) discussing what I thought was going to be about Christianity and also about "the missing Gospels".  The DVDs seemed to have a very heavy tilt toward gnosticism if I remember correctly.  This was a period in my life when I was reading stuff like the Left Behind Series and just in general reading, studying, and taking classes at a branch of the local university for retired folks about various religions.  Most of my study was about Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, and a few more odds and ends thrown in for good measure.  I came to the conclusion back then that Ehrman seeming had an axe to grind about something and seemed to rest his arguments on sketchy data (gnostic heresy material as I've come to find out) than on the thousands of more concrete manuscripts that were available to him.  I think Ehrman is very good at selling (and probably making a buttload of money) his main idea over and over - he has written several books on basically the same subject matter.  He can appear very convincing to people if they are not very well studied in Christian theology and Scripture.  On a positive note for Ehrman, he does not seem to be nearly as smarmy as the Left Behind authors.  All in all, my study has led me to be biased against Ehrman's "so called facts" and I think he is more interested in making a buck than scholarly study - just my opinion.  I am curious as to what turned him off Christianity but we will probably never know the real truth.

Thanks for posting it moda.  It was entertaining to read the debate again; I had forgotten about it.  It was a well done debate with a good moderator and civil participants.  Would be nice if political debates were as well done with a neutral moderator and civil participants.

... Mountaineer 
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle »

I don't put much faith in historical accounts of the resurrection....I'm going to remain agnostic. If our ancestors 1000s of years from now unearth a bunch of writing from MUFON they will cite proof that we were being invaded by aliens on a daily basis.
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
kka
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 12:46 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by kka »

doodle wrote: Kka,

They have found life on earth in the depths of the oceans where no sunlight reaches and the only source of heat and energy is the scalding hot magma that pours out of the cracks in the sea floor.

I don't know what sources you read but there are strong arguments that the building blocks of life came via comets.

Looking out at the vastness of the universe it is almost a mathematical certainty that we are not alone.
http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014 ... -scenario/

It takes more than building blocks to create life.  Information only arises from an intelligent cause.
http://www.livescience.com/25453-life-o ... ramed.html

An infinitesimally small probability times a huge but finite universe is still zero.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 20 - The Claims of Jesus
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7rbib1lp7nyz ... 0Jesus.pdf

Letter 21 - Jesus' Claim to Have God's Name
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rt1wqjz6hhl13 ... 20Name.pdf

Letter 22 - Church Symbols
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pkkf7ketho15a ... ymbols.pdf

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

doodle wrote: I don't put much faith in historical accounts of the resurrection....I'm going to remain agnostic. If our ancestors 1000s of years from now unearth a bunch of writing from MUFON they will cite proof that we were being invaded by aliens on a daily basis.
doodle,

This may sound silly, but bear with me.  Ponder this question for a while before answering, please.

If you were an animal whose physical appearance reflected where your heart is, what would it be?

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 23 - Miracles and the Nature of Faith
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c1q8xun3tc9dg ... 0Faith.pdf

Letter 24 - The Miracle of Rest
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4dno45v610pig ... 20Rest.pdf

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

doodle wrote: I absolutely love the way that Thomas Paine tears into the Bible. The only modern day author that I have seen and read that could compare is Christopher Hitchens.
doodle,

Perhaps this will be of benefit to you; I hope and pray so.

I'll call it: Living With a Clear Conscience

Althought Christian spirituality has to do with a way of life, it is not just another religious philosophy of life that helps us to understand our place in God's world, nor is it just a religious code of behavior that maps out how best to live the spiritual life hear on earth.  Spirituality's main focus is not on how to think or feel or act religiously, but on how to live, like St. Paul, with a good clear consicience before god and the people around us.  The basic premise of spirituality is that, for better or worse, the state of our conscience colors our experience of God.  St. Paul sums it up well in Titus 1:15-16 "To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and consciences are defiled.  They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their works.  The are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work." 

Let me explain what Paul is getting at.  How we receive God and respond to His Word depends on the state of our conscience.  Take a mirror: if it is stained, or if its surface is uneven, it does not receive and accurately reflect what is in front of it - the cleaner the mirror, the clearer its reception and reflection of the light.  Our conscience is like that mirror.  If it is stained, it does not receive and reflect the light of God; if it is clear, it is filled with the light that enlightens it and gives it insight.  By itself our conscience seems to have little or nothing to do with God.  It operates as a kind of internal court of law in which we play all the roles; we sit in the judge's seat and stand as the person on trial; we act as the counsel for the prosecution and as the counsel for our own defense.  The problem with our conscience is that while it functions as a kind of internal judge, it does not, by itself, provide any certain criteria by which we can rightly assess ourslves and others.  Our conscience is like a compass without a magnetic pole.  The results of its self-appraisal will differ according to the criteria it uses.  These criteria may be the views of our parents or our friends, the norms of society, or the pressure of fashion, or the philosophy of our life.  All these skew the operation of consciences.  We may use these criteria to excuse and affirm ourselves, but that sense of self-justification is short-lived.  We end up with an uneasy conscience.  No matter how hard we try to do the right thing, no matter what criteria we use to evaluate ourselves, we feel that we have failed, that we are not who we should be and who we should like to be.  Worst of all, from bitter experience we discover that our conscience is often deluded and clouded by self-interest; our conscience is tainted by our guilt, shame, self-righteousness, and our anger.  These distort perception and judgment; they leave us in the dark about ourselves. 

The Word of God enlightens our conscience.  God gave us our conscience so that we would know where we stand with Him.  He designed it so that we could attend to His Word and discern His will as revealed in His Word.  Our conscience operates as it shoud only when it is fully attentive to His Word both as Law and as Gospel; it operates properly only when it has been cleansed from the stain of sin.

God's Law as it is summed up in the Ten Commandments diagnoses the state of our conscience.  The Law identifies God as the Judge; it clears away the fog of neurotic and misplaced guilt.  Once we attend to it, things become clearer for us; we discover the truth about ourselves with respect to God and with respect to those around us.  Yet that relief is short-lived, for we soon discover that we cannot get rid of our guilt simply by doing the right thing and keeping the big Ten.  In his Law we realize how completely we are contaminated by both our own sins and the sins that have been committed against us.  And that makes for a bad consicience before God.  A bad conscience darkens our souls like nothing else on earth.  Nothing is worse, spiritually, than the confusion that it brings.  It affects our experience of God and life as a whole.  When we have a bad conscience, we see Him as a strict lawgiver and a harsh judge, a moral watchdog and a moral decective, someone out to get us.  His disapproval of our sin, His anger against injustice, is experienced as His personal disapproval and rejection of us as people.  We resent His demands.  We fear His condemnation.  He seems to act as if He were our enemy.  And so we work hard at getting God off our backs.  Failing that, we try to avoid Him by minimizing our contact with Him and anything to do with Him.

The cloud that comes from God's accusation and condemnation affects our whole behavior.  We cover up our shortcomings and trumpet our achievements before others.  Our friends are those who affirm us, while our enemies are those who criticize us.  Life becomes an ongoing exercise in self-promotion and self-justification before others.  Most of all, we are afraid - afraid of rejection by people and by God, afraid of death and confrontation with God the Judge in the final judgement. 

Our conscience, however, is only partly enlightened by the Law that diagnoses our spiritual impurity; it is fully enlightened by the gospel that cleanses us from that impurity, the Good News that we are justified by the grace of God the Father through faith in His belived Son, Jesus.  He offered Himself as a sacrifice for us and for our sin; it alone gives us a clear consicience before God the Father.  There is a close connection between faith and a good conscience.  Through faith in Christ we receive a good conscience.  We no longer fear God's disapproval and displeasure.  So, just as through faith in Christ we have a good conscience, a good conscience gives us access to the mystery of faith in Christ.  Our conscience functions properly only when it is governed by faith in God's Word and when it attends both to the voice of the Law and the voice of the Gospel.

The key to life in the presence of God the Father is a good conscience that comes from the Holy Spirit through the conviction of sin and the assurance of salvation.  That, in turn, leads to mental enlightenment by the Spirit, so that we learn to see ourselves and others as God does.  A good conscience also leads to emotional healing by the Spirit, so that we learn to see ourselves as God does.  When we have a good conscience, our puzzling journey through life, with all its twist and turns, its troubles and its joys, begins to make sense.

[credit for much of these thoughts to John Kleinig in Grace Upon Grace]

Blessings,

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 25 - The Miracles of Touching
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zkdg9k1e4wspu ... uching.pdf

Letter 26 - The Miracle of Forgiveness
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cr77p6s36j7v9 ... veness.pdf


... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Well internet friends and acquaintances, I am enjoying one more day on the bright side of the grass.  Coffee, eggs, sausage, and a V8.  I have reflected on the gift of my baptism where I was washed by water and the Word ... although I do not remember it at all and cannot really objectively prove it (the certificate may have been forged) - I just know it happened.  I'm now off to receive the gifts of God once again via hearing the Word proclaimed and eating/drinking the body and blood of Christ.  I hope your day goes splendidly, whether you are at Starbucks, home reading the paper, or still enjoying Saint Mattress, or physically joining God's church with me.  I used to do all those things on Sunday morning in my darker times (except for the church part).  I still do those things too, and enjoy them very much ... I just now give priority to this special specific time on a beautiful Sunday morning where I can go receive Jesus.  Have a great morning!  Catch you on the flip side  ;)

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 27 - The Miracle of the Ministry
https://www.dropbox.com/s/12y8hnpxg3hld ... nistry.pdf

Letter 28 - The Greatest Miracle that Never Happened - Part 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5colqqtq7r0z ... ed%201.pdf

Letter 29 - The Greatest Miracle that Never Happened - Part 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6niqsmdmg7oe3 ... ed%202.pdf

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle »

Food for thought:

[img width=500]http://38.media.tumblr.com/20642a7fcf5e ... 1_1280.jpg[/img]

TennPaGa note: To make the image fit better, I modified the opening tag to read [img width=500].  This makes the image 500 pixels wide, and appropriately scales the image height.
Last edited by doodle on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

doodle wrote: Food for thought:

[img width=500]http://38.media.tumblr.com/20642a7fcf5e ... 1_1280.jpg[/img]
That is not exactly true.  God created the heavens and the earth ... that little circle does not include the universe.  Also, on an earthly scale, Paul had trips to Greece and Rome ... also outside that little circle.  In Revelation, Satan was cast into the abyss ... we could debate where that is located  ;)

... Mountaineer
Last edited by Mountaineer on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 30 - He Dies Willingly
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bj04irbkeowcc ... lingly.pdf

Letter 31 - What Is "It"?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vn8blus0yakwu ... %22%3F.pdf

Letter 32 - What Else Is "It"?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0xk42r540khec ... %22%3F.pdf

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by doodle »

Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote: Food for thought:

[img width=500]http://38.media.tumblr.com/20642a7fcf5e ... 1_1280.jpg[/img]
That is not exactly true.  God created the heavens and the earth ... that little circle does not include the universe.  Also, on an earthly scale, Paul had trips to Greece and Rome ... also outside that little circle.  In Revelation, Satan was cast into the abyss ... we could debate where that is located  ;)

... Mountaineer
Why did god create Satan? I've always wondered that...
All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone. - Blaise Pascal
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

doodle wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
doodle wrote: Food for thought:

[img width=500]http://38.media.tumblr.com/20642a7fcf5e ... 1_1280.jpg[/img]
That is not exactly true.  God created the heavens and the earth ... that little circle does not include the universe.  Also, on an earthly scale, Paul had trips to Greece and Rome ... also outside that little circle.  In Revelation, Satan was cast into the abyss ... we could debate where that is located  ;)

... Mountaineer
Why did god create Satan? I've always wondered that...
Well doodle, if that is really a serious question, here is my answer, Scripture based, but you probably already knew that anyway:

God created angels.  One third of them were cast out of heaven, with Satan being the leader of the pack of Angels turned Demons.  Why did that happen, because Satan was not satisfied with his position, wanted to be like God, wanted to do his own thing, wanted to ignore God's plan for him - pretty much like we humans do when we reject God.  Since God is a God of justice as well as a God of mercy, he could not let Satan get away with it, just like He could not let Adam and Eve get away with it (thus the curse which was much kinder than just destroying them and starting over) and just like He cannot let those humans who reject God get away with it whether yesterday or today - thus the hell outcome for many - done of their own choice/fault.

... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Jan Van
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:42 am
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Jan Van »

Luckily hell is only temporary: Is The Devil In Charge Of Hell?
Yes, indeed, the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.

Is God a Torturer?
If God tortured His enemies in a fiery horror chamber throughout eternity, He would be more vicious and heartless than men have ever been in the worst of war atrocities. An eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also, who loves even the vilest sinner.
"Well, if you're gonna sin you might as well be original" -- Mike "The Cool-Person"
"Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man" -- The Dude
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Jan Van wrote: Luckily hell is only temporary: Is The Devil In Charge Of Hell?
Yes, indeed, the Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.

Is God a Torturer?
If God tortured His enemies in a fiery horror chamber throughout eternity, He would be more vicious and heartless than men have ever been in the worst of war atrocities. An eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also, who loves even the vilest sinner.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but God is in charge of everything from before time existed through eternity  Since there will be no more sin, death, or suffering after the Last Day it is kind of meaningless to speculate what "forever and eternity" will mean exactly since those terms are related to time.  Separation from God (hell) is for eternity, as in the eternal lake of fire (or all of the other names it has - take your pick).  Yes, God does love even the vilest sinner and sincerely hopes that sinner will repent and believe before the Last Day or the sinner's last day, whichever comes first.  I do not recall if Scriptures address directly what happens after the Last Day to those who rejected God, but the implication is they will remain separated from God forever (hell).  Place your bets and take your chances ladies and gents.  I'm personally betting on the trifecta that is assured to win - but then I guess that is not a bet in the truest sense of the Word.  ;)

... Mountaineer

Edited to add:  I almost forgot, Christ did descend into hell when he died on the cross - he went there to proclaim victory according to most sources!
Last edited by Mountaineer on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5078
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 33 - What More Is "It"? - The Passover
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ih8badwy08hn1 ... ssover.pdf

Letter 34 - What More Is "It"? - Our Redemption
https://www.dropbox.com/s/13jphzgv7k9ca ... mption.pdf

Letter 35 - The New Passover
https://www.dropbox.com/s/emclemoy02wit ... ssover.pdf


... Mountaineer
Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. Psalm 146:3
User avatar
Jan Van
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:42 am
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Jan Van »

Moved this answer here from the evolution thread.
Mountaineer wrote:To refresh you, a god is what you put your trust and identity in or derive meaning and security from; when you worship at the throne of envionmentalism or evolution, that is your religion.  In our postmodern culture, those who put their trust in themselves and not an external source of right and wrong, have really made themselves their own god - and thus their thoughts are their own religion.
I can't really make anything of that. I don't worship at the throne of environmentalism or evolution. I just think using science is the best and most adaptable way to figure out how things came along. I don't put my trust in it or derive my identity from it (well, on some level I do of course, say when I drive my car). Maybe next year they figure out things were different all along and that's fine, so be it. Meaning and security? I see no meaning, meaning in which way? Security in what? Not much security nowadays either. Identity? Seems a bit flexible, some people think I'm a nice guy, but then some can't stand me, so which one is it? You're born, you live, you die. Make the best of it.
"Well, if you're gonna sin you might as well be original" -- Mike "The Cool-Person"
"Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man" -- The Dude
Post Reply