BOA - $20 an hour

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doodle
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BOA - $20 an hour

Post by doodle » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:19 am

I was initially surprised about BOA's announcement to pay workers $20 an hour. Seems like a move that wouldn't maximize shareholder value in an industry that certainly pays most tellers far less. Then I read this https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/17/bank-of ... -jobs.html Same goes for Amazon bumping pay to 15 an hour. Is this because they are able to automate so much more of their operations?

Technology inducing unemployment. It seemed like that theme got swept under the rug as job numbers have soared over the last decade coming out of the great recession. Is this theme something that needs to come back to the forefront as workers clamor for higher wages? Will those higher wages continue to come on the backs of leaner workforces?
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:48 am

I saw recently that in the wake of a minimum wage increase in NYC to $15, restaurant workers employment went down, and managers said they were planning on laying off more people (going to automated service ilke San Fran and McDonald's I guess?).
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by europeanwizard » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:53 am

Some weeks back, Peter Schiff analyzed this in a podcast. He figured that this benefits the big boys, because they have enough money for robotization/automation. They either replace workers, or augment them, such that they can do with a smaller workforce.

Smaller companies can only downsize when the automation gets commoditized.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by doodle » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:29 am

Makes sense. It will be interesting to see what happens if the left regains power in future elections and pressures minimum wage standards higher. Will the economic disparity and stratification that they were seeking to mitigate become even more pronounced? I'm a glass half empty type of person so I'd appreciate the perspective of a more Pollyanna type of person to counterbalance my darker worldview as I recognize that I sometimes see problems with situations way too early.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:57 am

I keep coming back to the idea that labor really doesn't have any leverage. Except for the power to pull a crab back into the bucket. They can't force people to innovate and invent, they can only force them to share the rewards (in our current system).

Image

That said, John Michael Greer's idea of not taxing any income (salary, dividends, interest, rent), but instead taxing capital gains and automation, not allowing depreciation for tax purposes is thought-provoking.

It's basically a check on technological unemployment, employing a logical tax philosophy (tax what you don't want to happen, subsidize what you do want to happen). The problem is... what reason would corporations have for forming in the USA? Or doing business here? Other countries would look very tempting, in the same way the US has sucked up global talent for a long time. We would have to be willing to accept the possible consequences of technological stagnation or regression. It's a Prisoner's Dilemma.

However, taxing automation is, IMO, the moral way to provide for UBI. Robots don't mind the fruits of their labor or the prizes of their frugality being taken from them.

These things have a way of turning out differently than intended.
doodle wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:29 am
I'm a glass half empty type of person so I'd appreciate the perspective of a more Pollyanna type of person to counterbalance my darker worldview as I recognize that I sometimes see problems with situations way too early.
Sorry, it's darkness all the way down >:D
Only a few prefer liberty-- the majority seek nothing more than fair masters.
- Gaius Sallustius Crispus
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by jacksonM » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:23 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:48 am
I saw recently that in the wake of a minimum wage increase in NYC to $15, restaurant workers employment went down, and managers said they were planning on laying off more people (going to automated service ilke San Fran and McDonald's I guess?).
They have already gone down this road in Australia and you can see the results there. When my wife's sister's family visited us a couple of years ago my brother-in-law bragged about the minimum wage law and how their daughter would be starting a job at McDonald's making over $20/hour. Even had my own daughter wanting to move there.

Interestingly they were all quite impressed with how low the prices at McDonald's (as well as every other restaurant) were in the U.S.A - even adjusting for the exchange rate.

The next year we visited them in Australia and made an 8 day roundtrip car trip from Sydney to the Great Barrier reef. When I observed that in practically ever small town we drove through, the only restaurant in town was McDonald's and sometimes Burger King (Hungry Jack's) he explained that the reason for this was because those companies moved into town and offered lower prices to drive out the competition then raised them.

I politely suggested that was nonsense and maybe the minimum wage laws had something to do with it but I don't think it registered.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:30 am

I have teenagers, so I see the inside of places like McDonalds and Taco Bell more often than I'd like. Both restaurants (at multiple locations) have added self-service kiosks with touch screens for ordering. I'm always sure to ask my kids the rhetorical question: "You think they're paying these kiosks 15 bucks an hour?"
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by pugchief » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:34 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:30 am
I have teenagers, so I see the inside of places like McDonalds and Taco Bell more often than I'd like. Both restaurants (at multiple locations) have added self-service kiosks with touch screens for ordering. I'm always sure to ask my kids the rhetorical question: "You think they're paying these kiosks 15 bucks an hour?"
And McD is really pushing people to use the kiosks by understaffing the order counter, making the lines long.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by moda0306 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:49 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:57 am
I keep coming back to the idea that labor really doesn't have any leverage. Except for the power to pull a crab back into the bucket. They can't force people to innovate and invent, they can only force them to share the rewards (in our current system).

Image

That said, John Michael Greer's idea of not taxing any income (salary, dividends, interest, rent), but instead taxing capital gains and automation, not allowing depreciation for tax purposes is thought-provoking.

It's basically a check on technological unemployment, employing a logical tax philosophy (tax what you don't want to happen, subsidize what you do want to happen). The problem is... what reason would corporations have for forming in the USA? Or doing business here? Other countries would look very tempting, in the same way the US has sucked up global talent for a long time. We would have to be willing to accept the possible consequences of technological stagnation or regression. It's a Prisoner's Dilemma.

However, taxing automation is, IMO, the moral way to provide for UBI. Robots don't mind the fruits of their labor or the prizes of their frugality being taken from them.

These things have a way of turning out differently than intended.
doodle wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:29 am
I'm a glass half empty type of person so I'd appreciate the perspective of a more Pollyanna type of person to counterbalance my darker worldview as I recognize that I sometimes see problems with situations way too early.
Sorry, it's darkness all the way down >:D
I don’t know I follow. Most of the time, innovators or inventors are simply a higher wage form of labor. You’re talking engineers here. Not ceo’s usually. It is capital, not high-wage labor, that is the enemy of labor. And capital doesn’t invent. It just supplies capital.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by pugchief » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:52 am

moda0306 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:49 am
Most of the time, innovators or inventors are simply a higher wage form of labor. You’re talking engineers here. Not ceo’s usually. It is capital, not high-wage labor, that is the enemy of labor. And capital doesn’t invent. It just supplies capital.
Not always, but usually, where does that capital come from? Innovation and/or some other type of hard work coupled with vision. Why should that be the enemy of labor? If there was no capital, there would be no jobs.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by sophie » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:06 am

I wonder if this has less to do with minimum wage laws, and more to do with increased health insurance & payroll costs and decreased legal immigration (as opposed to the illegal kind, which is not relevant here). Legal immigration has tightened up considerably since Trump took office, going by the experience of my friends applying for green card renewals. That used to be a couple of months and a fairly easy process, but it now takes up to a year, or more. And that's for a skilled person, such as a university professor. I can only guess that it's even harder if you're unskilled.

We've all tossed around predictions that increased wages would result from a smaller unskilled labor pool. Perhaps this is actually happening? If so, it's a good thing. I also guess that higher payroll costs (other than wages) would pressure companies to minimize the number of employees and squeeze more work out of the ones they do hire, which again means you're competing for the high quality people in an already tight pool. This also would encourage increased pay.
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Re: BOA - $20 an hour

Post by moda0306 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:18 am

pugchief wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:52 am
moda0306 wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:49 am
Most of the time, innovators or inventors are simply a higher wage form of labor. You’re talking engineers here. Not ceo’s usually. It is capital, not high-wage labor, that is the enemy of labor. And capital doesn’t invent. It just supplies capital.
Not always, but usually, where does that capital come from? Innovation and/or some other type of hard work coupled with vision. Why should that be the enemy of labor? If there was no capital, there would be no jobs.
Capital (in the form of physical assets themselves... machinery, not the transfers of pieces of paper) come from already applied labor, but innovation and the sweat kind. But keep in mind to the degree a capital class exists, these folks are often not innovating, but simply leveraging and looking after their interests as owners. We don't identify with this much as a bunch of proletariat and petty bougie folks, but absolutely massive amounts of wealth are held by folks who didn't innovate anything, but simply seek the best risk-adjusted rate of return they can. Not that anything is individually wrong with this... I'd do the same if I inherited $400 million.

Of course you have some folks who combine saved capital with their sweat AND innovation labor, and these are the people we rightfully tip our cap to as entrepreneurs. But these folks often 1) are utterly dependent on their bodies and brains to be able to survive, 2) have a bank or capital class rent-seeker to pony up to, which makes them extremely dependent on steady demand, and/or 3) depend on a critical mass of demand from a working class with diminishing financial ability to purchase stuff beyond basic needs. They have their lot in with labor, not capital. They're 90% worker, and 10% "capitalist." Until perhaps they sell their business and retire one day with dozens of times more net worth than annual living expense.

So this attempt to group said entrepreneurs away from labor generally and towards capital investment interest is a weak one IMO.
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