The Green New Deal

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jacksonM
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The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:23 pm

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... ate-change
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez released a "Green New Deal" resolution Thursday that calls on the United States to mobilize against climate change just the way the nation mobilized to fight World War II.
The big difference between this and the mobilization for WWII, as I see it, will be that this war will have to be waged AGAINST the American people.

So what is her plan to combat the inevitable violent resistance when you tell Americans they can't drive their cars, fly on airplanes, or even heat their homes any more? We already saw it in France with the yellow vests just protesting a hike in the gasoline task to combat climate change.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by technovelist » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:09 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:23 pm
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... ate-change
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez released a "Green New Deal" resolution Thursday that calls on the United States to mobilize against climate change just the way the nation mobilized to fight World War II.
The big difference between this and the mobilization for WWII, as I see it, will be that this war will have to be waged AGAINST the American people.

So what is her plan to combat the inevitable violent resistance when you tell Americans they can't drive their cars, fly on airplanes, or even heat their homes any more? We already saw it in France with the yellow vests just protesting a hike in the gasoline task to combat climate change.
Fortunately there is no chance these insane proposals will be enacted.
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Maddy
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Maddy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:18 am

Yeah, because nobody will buy the bonds.
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am

Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
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Cortopassi
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:23 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
I wanted to be insulting, not fair-minded. That's neat she did some work with elegans, I was just reading about them earlier today.
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jacksonM
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by jacksonM » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:45 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
You graduate cum laude from a prestigious university then you work as a barmaid before going into politics?

Wouldn't exactly call this a "normal" American experience.

Admittedly she is an impressive person. Thought the same thing about Obama though I couldn't stand his politics.

And that dance video on youtube is really cool.

I just hope she never accomplishes her goals, at least as they stand today. I'm glad she's only 29 and thus not old enough to run for president though I understand she thinks that isn't fair and should be changed. She might be right about that but I would prefer it be changed from 35 to say 45.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by pugchief » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:52 pm

jacksonM wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:45 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:59 am
Noah Smith calculated the cost as roughly $6.6 trillion/year.

He said he assumed no cost overruns, all guaranteed jobs go to the environmental investments, zero loss of economic efficiency, and zero cost for the "affordable housing for all" guarantee.

She was a barmaid until like 4 months ago.
And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
You graduate cum laude from a prestigious university then you work as a barmaid before going into politics?
If you get your degree in some fictitious liberal arts major and thus can't get a real job because no such field actually exists, the only options are working at Starbucks or waiting tables / barstools until you can get a government make-work job or go into politics.
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Cortopassi
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:09 pm

pugchief wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:52 pm
jacksonM wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:45 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am


And that disqualifies her? That she actual grew up like a "normal" American, in a regular neighborhood?

Also: She graduated cum laude from Boston University's College of Arts and Sciences in 2011, majoring in international relations and economics.

and in high school:

She won second prize in the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair with a microbiology research project on the effect of antioxidants on the lifespan of the nematode C. elegans.[20] In a show of appreciation for her efforts, the International Astronomical Union named a small asteroid after her: 23238 Ocasio-Cortez.

Got an asteroid named after you? :D
You graduate cum laude from a prestigious university then you work as a barmaid before going into politics?
If you get your degree in some fictitious liberal arts major and thus can't get a real job because no such field actually exists, the only options are working at Starbucks or waiting tables / barstools until you can get a government make-work job or go into politics.
BTW, I have no vested interest in her succeeding or not. All I can say is at least she put something out there as a starting point. On another blog, where people were also very critical of the Green New Deal, I threw out there (with no response), what did people think in 1961 when JFK put out the moon speech? Just as nuts? More nuts? Think of all the advancements in science and engineering that program gave the world. I would suspect quite a few breakthroughs would happen under this deal in at least some areas.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by sophie » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:27 am

Took a quick peek at the Green New Deal. It's mainly a call for Congress to get off their derrieres and stop amusing themselves with Trump-baiting, and start working on infrastructure that really does need attention. Not at all a bad thing.

Some of the items on the list are ridiculously naive, like "upgrade all existing buildings to make them energy efficient" - hell, if that were at all feasible NYC would already have done it. Others are pure socialist crap like the one calling for cash welfare for "anyone unable or unwilling to work.", "A guaranteed job for all." (Guaranteed by whom? and to do what?) and "high speed rail to make air travel non-existent" (is she not aware of the distance between the west and east coasts?) But others I could really get behind. High speed rail for mid/near distance travel, infrastructure repair, smart power grid, more sustainable/renewable energy.
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:44 am

High speed rail is quite a downer that the US has basically zero.

Right now, I can drive from Chicago to New York, about 825 miles, in a little under 13 hours

Amtrak best case is 19 hours, worst case is 29 hours. (28 to 43 MPH average speed!)

Flight is 2 hours.

If I had a high speed rail option to avoid the airport, that could get me there in, say, 5 hours (165 MPH), you bet I would take that option.

Pic below from a monitor when we went to Italy in 2016, regional train between Rome and Venice. 153MPH. Even Italy, where government sucks terribly.

Image
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Re: The Green New Deal

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:22 am

sophie wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:27 am
Took a quick peek at the Green New Deal. It's mainly a call for Congress to get off their derrieres and stop amusing themselves with Trump-baiting, and start working on infrastructure that really does need attention. Not at all a bad thing.
In general, I think it makes more sense for the government to limit what entities can do ("you can't dump your toxic waste into the cities drinking water"), instead of telling them they have to do something ("you have to insulate your house with R50 insulation"). For instance, if we didn't mandate that cars had to be uparmored, fuel efficiency would be much higher. They have an emotional response to THAT tradeoff (if people get in wrecks, they'll be more likely to get injured/killed), but when you can abstract the tradeoffs (it will cost a lot of money to do all this, but we are a currency issuer, blah blah), it seems more palatable.
Some of the items on the list are ridiculously naive, like "upgrade all existing buildings to make them energy efficient" - hell, if that were at all feasible NYC would already have done it.
In the archived FAQs, they graciously admitted that the government simply hadn't given away enough money:

"Merely incentivizing the private sector doesn’t work - e.g. the tax incentives and subsidies given to wind and solar projects have been a valuable spur to growth in the US renewables industry but, even with such investment-promotion subsidies, the present level of such projects is simply inadequate to transition to a fully greenhouse gas neutral economy as quickly as needed."
Others are pure socialist crap like the one calling for cash welfare for "anyone unable or unwilling to work.",
Evidently, one of her advisors, a law professor, went on Tucker Carlson's show and spouted off, repeatedly, that the "unwilling to work" part was a fabricated lie and she "never said anything like that." ;D Later her team admitted that it was in the first draft.
"A guaranteed job for all." (Guaranteed by whom? and to do what?) and "high speed rail to make air travel non-existent" (is she not aware of the distance between the west and east coasts?) But others I could really get behind. High speed rail for mid/near distance travel, infrastructure repair, smart power grid, more sustainable/renewable energy.
As Cullen wrote, she is a MMT proponent, so they thinks the government can just borrow all the money. The adviser from the Tucker segment said that even though we're going to have a lot more money floating around because of the government spending, we're going to have a lot more goods to offset it, "if the money you're spending is resulting int he production of a great many more goods, you have no inflation problem." This isn't even internally consistent with their plan, since most of it is retrofitting things we already have that are cheaper. So you aren't getting any new goods, you're replacing ones you already have. IE, spending money on an electric car and associated infrastructure replaces a gas car and infrastructure we already have.

I'm skeptical of the ROI claims for infrastructure, like "for every $1 spent on highways, we get back $6 in productivity gains." From what I can tell, they're making assumptions such as "if a $20/hr worker can get to their job 10 minutes faster with this new highway, then we get a $3.33 increase in productivity per person per day. If 100 of their fellow workers can take the same highway, then you have $85,000 of new productivity a year."

We don't even budget enough to take care of our existing infrastructure (which I don't believe would be left to rot and decay). Just stop and think about what adding a bunch of new, higher-tech infrastructure, with its associated maintenance and replacement costs, will result in.
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To sleep, perchance to dream; ay, there's the rub
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
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