GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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Desert
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Desert » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:52 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:58 pm
Speaking of specific circumstances, several have mentioned they are sitting on losses as they've been holding this stinky stuff since 2011. After doing the math (annual fees, commissions, spreads etc.), it may be worth cashing out GLD, take the loss for tax purpose, wait the required time to avoid the wash sale rule and slide in to GLD.
Did you mean "slide in to GLDM?"
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:33 pm

pugchief wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:34 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:49 pm
I wonder about GLDM vs. GLD's bid/ask spread. If it is even a penny more on GLDM vs. GLD, because it is more thinly traded, and you have to buy 10x the number of shares, here's what you get:

Hypothetical 200oz (@$1250 is $250k value) in PP, need 2000 shares GLD or 20,000 shares GLDM.

.01 spread on 2000 shares is $20
.02 spread on 20,000 shares is $400

This is an added .008% fee on GLD, and 0.16% on GLDM. Trade in and out a lot and the lower fee will be more than eaten up by the # of shares/spread. Even if the spread is the same, you will always spend 10x more on the bid/ask for GLDM.
So you are saying that GLDM is not a good deal, even with the lower expense ratio?
I think kbg sums it up nicely, it depends, but for most ppers, who buy and hold it is better long term.

If anyone buys into it, I would be interested to know what the spread is when you bought.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by dualstow » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:16 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:52 pm
I'm hurt fella's truly...calling me a bold face liar. :)

Google away on this issue, tis a well known fact. Here is one of many articles on the issue.

https://www.fidelity.com/learning-cente ... efficiency

If I was a Boglehead I'm sure I'd be nagging you more about "Well, ETFs are bad because they are so easy to trade that people will do stupid stuff." 8)

Where there are three like kind Vanguard ETF/mutual funds (e.g. regular vs. Admiral shares vs. the ETF version) IDRC ever seeing the ETF version that doesn't have the same expense ratio as the Admirals shares. And why is that? Cuz all the small fry trading is a non-event for the ETF as a whole.
Huh. I learned something new today.
I wonder if the tax-managed version of mutual funds has yet another strategy.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Kbg » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:21 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:52 pm
Kbg wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:58 pm
Speaking of specific circumstances, several have mentioned they are sitting on losses as they've been holding this stinky stuff since 2011. After doing the math (annual fees, commissions, spreads etc.), it may be worth cashing out GLD, take the loss for tax purpose, wait the required time to avoid the wash sale rule and slide in to GLD.
Did you mean "slide in to GLDM?"
Yes, sorry for the typo.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Kbg » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:39 pm

dualstow wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:16 pm
Kbg wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:52 pm
I'm hurt fella's truly...calling me a bold face liar. :)

Google away on this issue, tis a well known fact. Here is one of many articles on the issue.

https://www.fidelity.com/learning-cente ... efficiency

If I was a Boglehead I'm sure I'd be nagging you more about "Well, ETFs are bad because they are so easy to trade that people will do stupid stuff." 8)

Where there are three like kind Vanguard ETF/mutual funds (e.g. regular vs. Admiral shares vs. the ETF version) IDRC ever seeing the ETF version that doesn't have the same expense ratio as the Admirals shares. And why is that? Cuz all the small fry trading is a non-event for the ETF as a whole.
Huh. I learned something new today.
I wonder if the tax-managed version of mutual funds has yet another strategy.
No. Tax managed MFs are actually tax managed in that they tweak their bond allocations toward munis or other tax advantaged bonds and engage in tax loss harvesting and other stock trading strategies to minimize gains distributions. By contrast, the ETF advantage is structural. Side note...I believe the SEC has or is very close to approving a change to the ETF rules that opens up what can be ETF’d and there are many predictions that MF outflows will increase even more.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by dualstow » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am

I mean Vanguard’s tax-managed stock funds. See VTMSX, for example.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by pugchief » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:40 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:33 pm
If anyone buys into it, I would be interested to know what the spread is when you bought.
I bought some today an hour after trading started. The spread today was smaller than when I looked yesterday.

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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Kbg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:51 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:54 am
I mean Vanguard’s tax-managed stock funds. See VTMSX, for example.
I assume this is directed to me...yes, Vanguard will be using various stock trading/management strategies to minimize taxes. There are quite a few strategies fund managers can use to manage taxes/distributions...I know some and I'm sure there are many I'm not aware of. For example, if you had company A that is a dividend producer vs. a like and kind (sort of) company B that does not issue dividends the manager would select B over A. Another method you are probably familiar with is tax loss harvesting.

I'm guessing you could read the prospectus and get a pretty good rundown on what they are doing specifically with regard to the fund noted.

If I misunderstood your intent, my apologies.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Desert » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:56 am

Kbg is correct that ETF's have a structural advantage regarding tax efficiency. Vanguard is an exception, however. They have a structure (patent protected until 2023) that allows the mutual fund to be as tax efficient as the ETF.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs ... uard_funds
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Kbg » Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:49 pm

Desert wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:56 am
Kbg is correct that ETF's have a structural advantage regarding tax efficiency. Vanguard is an exception, however. They have a structure (patent protected until 2023) that allows the mutual fund to be as tax efficient as the ETF.

https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/ETFs_vs ... uard_funds
Learned something new today...explains why ETF and Admiral share mngt fees are always the same.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by dualstow » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:54 pm

Aha. And it explains why so many B’Hds stick with fund shares.
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Re: GLDM - 0.18 exp. ratio 'Gold minishares'

Post by Desert » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:56 am

Well, the time has come for me to buy some additional gold. It appears that GLDM is the best option, due to the ER. Does anyone disagree?
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