Gyroscopic Investing

I am interested in getting some geographic diversification in my gold holdings.  More specifically, I'd like to have a portion of my gold holdings that is beyond the reach of the US government, just in case a 1933 style gold confiscation or other event hazardous to my gold holdings occurs in the USA.

I assume that ETFs do not meet my criteria, because the IRS could easily freeze my Vanguard account. 

Goldmoney.com and Perth Mint both seem to be possible options.  What do people think of these two?

Are there other options?  I will add that I am a US citizen and resident, but I also hold a passport to a Eurozone country, so if anybody knows of additional foreign gold options based on that, I'd love to hear of them.

How about open a brokerage account in Canada and buy some GTU in it.

MediumTex wrote:How about open a brokerage account in Canada and buy some GTU in it.

I looked at the Canadian broker TDWaterhouse and found that I would have to fill out forms that TDWaterhouse sends to the IRS.  So the IRS would be aware of such holdings and could easily just send a request to TDWaterHouse asking them to freeze all American account holder assets, couldn't they?  To me that doesn't seem to provide much diversification. I guess such forms have to be filed for any foreign investment of $10K or more, but wouldn't Perth/Goldmoney be less likely to cooperate with the IRS than a big brokerage?

you will be required to file the FBAR w/ IRS if you have overseas accounts with total value in excess a minimum ($10k?)...that recently includes precious metals holdings like goldmoney.

theoretically, goldmoney has greater geographic diversification than something like TD as they have no American operation, unlinke TD or even some swiss banks.

fnord123 wrote: I am interested in getting some geographic diversification in my gold holdings.  More specifically, I'd like to have a portion of my gold holdings that is beyond the reach of the US government, just in case a 1933 style gold confiscation or other event hazardous to my gold holdings occurs in the USA.

I assume that ETFs do not meet my criteria, because the IRS could easily freeze my Vanguard account. 

Goldmoney.com and Perth Mint both seem to be possible options.  What do people think of these two?

Are there other options?   I will add that I am a US citizen and resident, but I also hold a passport to a Eurozone country, so if anybody knows of additional foreign gold options based on that, I'd love to hear of them.

I would try opening up a bank account in Europe (<10K) and fill a safe deposit box with gold coins you purchase there.  I don't know the ins and outs of doing this, but it would seem feasible given your situation.

Good idea Pkg Man.  I think maybe the following variation of it might work:

1) Drive (not fly!) to Canada. I live in Oregon so this is feasible.  Carry in the car some Maple Leaf gold coins.
2) Open a bank account in a Canadian bank while I am there.  Here's one that offers a free safe deposit box with $5K balance: http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/accounts/select.jsp
3) Put coins in safe deposit box.

My understanding is since the account value is < $10K, it would be exempt from reporting, as contents of a safe deposit box don't count.  Does this match others' understanding? I do not want to violate the law in any way!

Pkg Man wrote:

fnord123 wrote: I am interested in getting some geographic diversification in my gold holdings.  More specifically, I'd like to have a portion of my gold holdings that is beyond the reach of the US government, just in case a 1933 style gold confiscation or other event hazardous to my gold holdings occurs in the USA.

I assume that ETFs do not meet my criteria, because the IRS could easily freeze my Vanguard account. 

Goldmoney.com and Perth Mint both seem to be possible options.  What do people think of these two?

Are there other options?   I will add that I am a US citizen and resident, but I also hold a passport to a Eurozone country, so if anybody knows of additional foreign gold options based on that, I'd love to hear of them.

I would try opening up a bank account in Europe (<10K) and fill a safe deposit box with gold coins you purchase there.  I don't know the ins and outs of doing this, but it would seem feasible given your situation.

Are you going to buy insurance to cover the coins in the safe deposit box?

fnord123 wrote: Good idea Pkg Man.  I think maybe the following variation of it might work:

1) Drive (not fly!) to Canada. I live in Oregon so this is feasible.  Carry in the car some Maple Leaf gold coins.
2) Open a bank account in a Canadian bank while I am there.  Here's one that offers a free safe deposit box with $5K balance: http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/accounts/select.jsp
3) Put coins in safe deposit box.

My understanding is since the account value is < $10K, it would be exempt from reporting, as contents of a safe deposit box don't count.  Does this match others' understanding? I do not want to violate the law in any way!

I have no idea if this would meet the legal requirements, but in my opinion what you put in the box is no one else's business.

TBV wrote:

Pkg Man wrote:

fnord123 wrote: I am interested in getting some geographic diversification in my gold holdings.  More specifically, I'd like to have a portion of my gold holdings that is beyond the reach of the US government, just in case a 1933 style gold confiscation or other event hazardous to my gold holdings occurs in the USA.

I assume that ETFs do not meet my criteria, because the IRS could easily freeze my Vanguard account. 

Goldmoney.com and Perth Mint both seem to be possible options.  What do people think of these two?

Are there other options?   I will add that I am a US citizen and resident, but I also hold a passport to a Eurozone country, so if anybody knows of additional foreign gold options based on that, I'd love to hear of them.

I would try opening up a bank account in Europe (<10K) and fill a safe deposit box with gold coins you purchase there.  I don't know the ins and outs of doing this, but it would seem feasible given your situation.

Are you going to buy insurance to cover the coins in the safe deposit box?

I don't insure the contents of my safe deposit boxes, but I do use multiple boxes to lesson the chance of catastrophic loss.  I suppose it might depend on how much I had in each.

When determining the balance of the account (if trying to stay under $10k) do you use the face value of the coin, or the market value?

fnord123 wrote: 2) Open a bank account in a Canadian bank while I am there.  Here's one that offers a free safe deposit box with $5K balance: http://www.tdcanadatrust.com/accounts/select.jsp
3) Put coins in safe deposit box.

Better to plan on paying for the safe deposit box with your own funds.  Fine print (which may not be on the website) at some banks or company policies may reserve special deals for residents of that country; TD might or might not be one of those banks.

The other reason to pay with your own money and get a receipt:  Freebie offers can be withdrawn at any time, and often without much notice.  What's free in 2011 might change into a fee (you don't learn about until too late) in 2015.  Or free offers might be withdrawn through a computer glitch.  And if you don't realize the free box is no longer free, you might lose the contents due to "nonpayment."

If you put anything in a safe deposit box, be sure to visit it periodically--at least once or twice a year.  Doing that will lessen the chances of your box's contents landing on the "Unclaimed Property" list--and it's just a good idea to keep an eye on things of value, whether they are buried in the backyard or stored in a safe deposit box vault.

Don't get the idea that you can hide something from the USA government.  Governments of small countries may simply roll over (as did Switzerland) when the USA roars and beats on its chest and demands access to at least the information about the accounts.  As someone said, all the USA would have to do is ask Canada (a small country) to freeze American accounts and safety deposit boxes.  Now, who thinks Canada wouldn't do that if asked (nicely)?