Trump as tragicomedy

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stuper1
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:56 pm

Who do you think is "behind the scenes" at the WSJ? Of course, it's big business, right? Does big business want open borders? Of course, they do. That's how the ponzi scheme economy keeps from collapsing, by importing more consumers and cheap labor. Heaven forbid that another Japan-style economic stagnation should happen here, even though Japan has salvaged its culture. Meanwhile American culture continues to disappear. Big business wants the money and couldn't care less about culture. It can create its own artificial culture at theme parks. No need for real culture.

I think the WSJ saying what they do only confirms that there is a real emergency at the border. Otherwise they wouldn't waste their breath.

Pretty much anything that comes out of the mainstream media these days should be questioned extensively.
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dualstow
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:34 pm

If not mainstream media, where do you want all those ex security officials to voice their concerns, some tinfoil site?

If you agreed with them, you wouldn’t perceive any shadowy agenda.
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sophie
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by sophie » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:21 pm

Well, it is true that open borders are good for business. Keeps wages low, and business don't (directly) bear the the cost of illegal immigration.

But, the precedent set by this declaration isn't going to be good for business in future. What if the next Democratic president declares an emergency to deal with climate change, and calls for, say, a one time 10% tax on the value of every business? That would be just as legit as the intent to redirect funds from hurricane relief to building the wall.

(p.s. I'm quite happy not being an older guy. Maddy and I get to hold down the X chromosome fort around here.)
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technovelist
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by technovelist » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:50 pm

sophie wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:21 pm
Well, it is true that open borders are good for business. Keeps wages low, and business don't (directly) bear the the cost of illegal immigration.

But, the precedent set by this declaration isn't going to be good for business in future. What if the next Democratic president declares an emergency to deal with climate change, and calls for, say, a one time 10% tax on the value of every business? That would be just as legit as the intent to redirect funds from hurricane relief to building the wall.

(p.s. I'm quite happy not being an older guy. Maddy and I get to hold down the X chromosome fort around here.)
I'm not aware of any legal provision for the President to confiscate money from people by declaring a tax.
On the other hand, there are legal provisions for declaration of emergency which allow the President to redirect money already allocated by Congress to different purposes.

So this is an example of comparing apples and lake-effect snow.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by boglerdude » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:26 am

"Meanwhile American culture continues to disappear. Big business wants the money and couldn't care less about culture."

As a stockholder you are big business. And what is "culture." We want immigrants who will increase GDP and not drain it, maybe instead of a border wall it should be an obstacle course
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dualstow
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:14 am

technovelist wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:50 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:21 pm
...
What if the next Democratic president declares an emergency to deal with climate change, and calls for, say, a one time 10% tax on the value of every business? That would be just as legit as the intent to redirect funds from hurricane relief to building the wall.

(p.s. I'm quite happy not being an older guy. Maddy and I get to hold down the X chromosome fort around here.)
...
I'm not aware of any legal provision for the President to confiscate money from people by declaring a tax.
FDR seized your gold by executive order. I’m sure they could think of something and not call it a tax.
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sophie
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by sophie » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:09 am

OK got that about outright taxes. However there's lots of closely related possibilities as dualstow points out. Here's an interesting article on the power of the executive branch to seize property:

https://scholarship.law.edu/cgi/viewcon ... =lawreview

Looks like it's controversial, but there are precedents. Think it's possible that a president could order the seizure of coal plants and oil refineries under a climate-change emergency declaration?
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technovelist
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:35 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:14 am
technovelist wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:50 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:21 pm
...
What if the next Democratic president declares an emergency to deal with climate change, and calls for, say, a one time 10% tax on the value of every business? That would be just as legit as the intent to redirect funds from hurricane relief to building the wall.

(p.s. I'm quite happy not being an older guy. Maddy and I get to hold down the X chromosome fort around here.)
...
I'm not aware of any legal provision for the President to confiscate money from people by declaring a tax.
FDR seized your gold by executive order. I’m sure they could think of something and not call it a tax.
That was far before Trump's supposed "innovative" use of emergency declarations, so I don't understand the relevance.
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technovelist
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:37 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:09 am
OK got that about outright taxes. However there's lots of closely related possibilities as dualstow points out. Here's an interesting article on the power of the executive branch to seize property:

https://scholarship.law.edu/cgi/viewcon ... =lawreview

Looks like it's controversial, but there are precedents. Think it's possible that a president could order the seizure of coal plants and oil refineries under a climate-change emergency declaration?
A President can order ANYTHING.

Whether that order will take effect or not depends on a lot of things.

I don't think Trump's use of powers granted to the President by Congress is one of those things, though.
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dualstow
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by dualstow » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:05 am

technovelist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:35 am
dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:14 am
technovelist wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:50 pm

...
I'm not aware of any legal provision for the President to confiscate money from people by declaring a tax.
FDR seized your gold by executive order. I’m sure they could think of something and not call it a tax.
That was far before Trump's supposed "innovative" use of emergency declarations, so I don't understand the relevance.
Why does the passage of time make it irrelevant?
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technovelist
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by technovelist » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:47 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:05 am
technovelist wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:35 am
dualstow wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:14 am

FDR seized your gold by executive order. I’m sure they could think of something and not call it a tax.
That was far before Trump's supposed "innovative" use of emergency declarations, so I don't understand the relevance.
Why does the passage of time make it irrelevant?
I don't understand the claim that Trump's use of an emergency declaration means that a future President is more likely to issue a confiscation order when the precedent is much older than that.
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Re: Trump as tragicomedy

Post by stuper1 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:04 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:26 am
"Meanwhile American culture continues to disappear. Big business wants the money and couldn't care less about culture."

As a stockholder you are big business. And what is "culture." We want immigrants who will increase GDP and not drain it, maybe instead of a border wall it should be an obstacle course
What is culture? I googled it. It says culture is the customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. Are you saying that you don't believe that is actually a real thing? Do you enjoy traveling? When you go to China is it the same as going to Zimbabwe? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Personally, I think it's a good thing. It makes traveling more enjoyable.

Believe it or not, America has a culture too. Big business is ruining our culture by encouraging immigration at rates that are too high to allow the immigrants to assimilate to our culture. Instead they tend to stay in their own groups and keep too much of their own culture. Is that a good thing? I say no. If they want to keep their own culture, why don't they stay in their own country and improve it from within? But it's really not the immigrants' fault. You can't blame them for wanting to better their own standard of living. It's the fault of the powers in this country for allowing too much legal and illegal immigration.

I have no idea whether you were born in this country or how old you are. I was born in the mid-1960s. I can certainly say that the America I live in today is quite different from the one I grew up in. I don't think the changes are for the better.
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