Gyroscopic Investing

In another thread, people were wondering about Tulving and had concerns about integrity.  This post is just a recent experience I've had and shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than that.  Your experience with a dealer might be different than mine.

Until now, I've only purchased bullion from Tulving.  Last week I was looking at the rise in silver and debated selling a portion of it and taking the cap gains taxes.  Prior to the recent run-up, I hadn't expected to liquidate silver for another 3-5 years.  Funny how a 200% increase in a year will make you question your positions.  Anyway, I decided I would keep the majority of my silver but sell off $1,000 face (715 oz) of it, take the tax hit and leave the rest in cash or reallocate to PM miners.

I packaged all 56lbs of it in a shoebox and duct taped the hell out of it.  I called Tulving to get their UPS account number (they pay for shipping).  Once in hand, I went to a regional UPS location to ship.  The problems started when the lady behind the desk tried to pick up a shoebox that should probably have shoes in it.  When she could barely lift it, the conversation went something like this...

Her: What the heck is in this thing?

Me: Dimes.

Her: Huh?  That's a lot of dimes.  I don't think we can take this.  Let me check....[looks for instructions]...yeah, we can't send cash.

Me: [wondering how I need to phrase this without advertising to everyone in the room] Well, it's not exactly cash.

Her: What do you mean?

Me:  Well...they were dimes, but now they're not.  They're collectibles--like baseball cards--and they are going to a dealer.

Her: So...if i dropped this package and the dimes fell out, could I go to the mini-mart and buy milk with them?

Me: Technically yes, but you'd be overpaying for your milk.

Her: So it's cash.  We can't send cash.

Me: Um...can you check with someone on this?  The recipient is a dealer.  They've been doing it this way for 30 years.

Her:  Hang on...[checks with security]...yup, no can do.

-End for now-

So this went on for 30 minutes.  I had to call up Tulving and have someone speak with everyone at this place.  Apparently, it all comes down to insurance.  Tulving is covered by Lloyds of London and when the rep from Tulving told Mr. Security, he said, "ok, I'll talk to your account rep on this, but I've never handled this before.  I'll let it go out."

He then proceeds to explain to the desk attendant that the package is covered and to let it go out.  She looks at me and says, "Wow...Lloyds of London?  Really?  Isn't that what models use for their legs and stuff?"  At this point, any shred of privacy and discretion is gone, but at least Tulving's guys worked it out. 

That was last Wednesday the 27th.  After getting the tracking numbers, I called Tulving to get a lock-in price.  You can't lock in your sell price until you have tracking numbers in hand.  The guy I spoke with said, "Ok, spot is $47.80 and we pay $1 less than spot, so your lock price is $46.80."  I asked for an email confirmation and he said they couldn't do that, which made me a bit nervous.

What made me more nervous is that I appeared to have lucked out and sold right before the monumental correction started.

Tulving's website says they will cut a check 2 days after they receive the package.  That was Monday the 2nd, and I should have received the check on Tuesday the 3rd.  I called yesterday after I hadn't received anything in the mail and spoke with someone who said they had a backlog to go through.  She said call back today (the 4th) for a tracking number.  I called today and she said it did go out and gave me a tracking number.

Sure enough, I got the check.  Most importantly, it was at my lock price of $46.80.  I'm sure Tulving could've really screwed me on this one.  He could have paid out $6,000 less and I don't know if I would've had much recourse since I didn't have anything in writing.  I suppose I could live with a $38oz sell price, but I can think of some things I can buy for $6K--one of which is the taxes.

I already know I got really lucky on the sell price (for the time being).  What I'm happy about is that Tulving stuck to his word on it and didn't try and pull anything shady.  Again, your experience might be different than mine, but I've been really happy with Tulving so far on both sides of the transaction.  The buy/sell spread is the lowest I've seen anywhere and the customer service has been excellent.  If you are buying or selling volume, they'd get my recommendation.

As a side note, trying to explain pre-1965 silver coins to someone not familiar is much harder than you would think.  The fact that model's legs enters the discussion is borderline twilight zone.

Wonk wrote: As a side note, trying to explain pre-1965 silver coins to someone not familiar is much harder than you would think.  The fact that model's legs enters the discussion is borderline twilight zone.

Next time when she asks what's in the box just tell her that it is miniature tungsten reproductions of famous women's legs, and not to worry, the miniatures are insured by Lloyd's of London.  As a bit of trivia, you might tell her that the insurance policies on the miniature leg reproductions are also miniature and make a motion with your finger drawing a 3x5 index card in the air.

Thanks for the feedback on this dealer.  That's very helpful.

Thanks for sharing that experience with Tulving.  That is good to hear.  I'd heard that he can be a bit prickly personality-wise but he seems to have a ton of integrity and good prices.

Good story, too, by the way. 

Wonk,

I was seriously considering buying bags of silver coins from Tulving when silver was at 16, but passed ( see my prior post on the Costanza principle). If you were to do this again, in order to avoid this hassle, what would you tell them was in the box? Silver, silver bullion, collectibles....?

This reminds me of when I picked up my first order of gold from the post office, the woman working at the desk said in a loud voice, "this small box sure is heavy!".

Good story, Wonk. I think I'm sold on Tulving. If I end up buying a pound* of gold all at once, it'll be from them.

*(Well, more like 20 ounces)

A week or so ago, I was collecting quotes on Tulving at this forum, so I may as well paste them here. After all, the thread title is Tulving.
I'm omitting the quote wrappers which would make the text tiny.

== TULVING ==
by Plumbline
Re: Coin Prices
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 04:34:46 PM »
Tulving has some of the lowest spot prices, and free shipping.  They even reimburse for the first wire fee.
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Title: Re: Coin Prices
Post by: Gumby on February 18, 2011, 11:29:27 AM
Quote from: Adam1226 on February 18, 2011, 10:32:56 AM
Do you guys think there's any downside to buying on the internet?  (BullionDirect.com).

If they are reputable and the shipping is fully insured by reputable insurers it should be fine. I used CNI and Tulving on separate occasions and had no issues. They were very professional. I was advised by others to purchase a Fisch tool to test the coins that were sold even by reputable dealers. I felt better being able to confirm the coins were genuine. The nice thing about coins is that they are difficult to forge and easy to test (markings and elemental weight-to-volume specifications).
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Title: Re: where to buy gold coins
Post by: Wonk on May 27, 2010, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: PPConvert on May 27, 2010, 02:18:18 PM
what is the best, most efficient way to buy gold coins?  i have heard ampex mentioned on bogleheads thread.

also, for SHTF scenarios where it was necessary to use PM as currency, is it wise to have not just 1 oz gold coins, but also 1/2, 1/4 oz. coins, etc.?  otherwise, how do you pay for smaller stuff since the 1 oz gold coins are worth so much?  is silver the answer here?  thanks.

www.tulving.com

Keep 95% gold, 5% pre-1965 silver coins if you are worried about SHTF.
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Title: Re: Ordering a large amount of bullion
Post by: Wonk on April 06, 2011, 08:08:55 AM
A lot of good advice here so far.  I would add that I use tulving.com for my purchases because I haven't found lower spreads anywhere else.  They have all been in the mid to high-5 figure range and I've had no problems.  I also agree that you should check your local dealers first.  If the prices are good, you can deal with them face to face and receive your bullion on the spot(so to speak).  Additionally, I agree you might want to break up your purchases into smaller segments.  Lastly, if you are putting  a sizable buy order over the phone, you might want to record the phone call in the event you need recourse.  They should have no problem agreeing to document the order.

Good luck.
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glock19
Re: which coin?
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2010, 06:20:34 AM »
I've had good results from Tulving.com but think I will shop the above dealers on next purchase.  I owned Krugs in the past and felt comfortable but mixed with Eagles may be a good option.
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6 Iron
Re: Ordering a large amount of bullion
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2011, 05:42:46 PM »
I have also received excellent service from Tulving, but they do have a 20 coin minimum for 1 oz coins.
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Gumby
Executive Member
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Posts: 197


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Re: Ordering a large amount of bullion
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2011, 10:34:00 PM »
It's worth mentioning that Tulving only deals with large orders of Gold (20oz minimum order) and their shipments are insured by Lloyds of London.

http://tulving.com/New%20Pages/quote_fr ... arrier.htm

They offer very good spreads due to their minimums and they have an excellent reputation.

The nice thing about gold is that even a very large order tends to fit in a relatively small package. I was shocked to discover that my entire net worth in gold could fit into a tiny glove box.

You could easily buy a few orders in 20oz or 40oz increments just to get a feel for it — 40oz is a very small order for Tulving.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 10:42:37 PM by Gumby »
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6 Iron wrote: Wonk,

I was seriously considering buying bags of silver coins from Tulving when silver was at 16, but passed ( see my prior post on the Costanza principle). If you were to do this again, in order to avoid this hassle, what would you tell them was in the box? Silver, silver bullion, collectibles....?

This reminds me of when I picked up my first order of gold from the post office, the woman working at the desk said in a loud voice, "this small box sure is heavy!".

Tulving tells you on their site that you should not declare it unless asked.  If you are asked, you must declare it.  The circumstances were kind of murky at the time.  It was an unofficial "what the heck is in here?" rather than an official "what are the contents of this package?"  But, I didn't want to do anything I wasn't supposed to do and I didn't have a prepared response coded in Fedspeak, so I just told the truth while leaving out explicit details (ie-these dimes are actually worth 33x their face value).

Looking back, I should have said "junk metal" which is sufficiently true and ambiguous at the same time.  I'll do that next time if necessary.  It is kind of funny that $30,000+ of "shiny rocks" just gets sent through the mail like that.  When it comes time to liquidate the majority of my gold & silver, I may have to rethink the USPS/UPS though.  I just don't know how I can send the majority of my net worth through the mail and hope everything turns out ok.  I'd get an ulcer.  I haven't figured out exactly what I'm going to do, but it's either going to be a trip to the local dealer or a trip in an RV to California.

"This reminds me of when I picked up my first order of gold from the post office, the woman working at the desk said in a loud voice, "this small box sure is heavy!"."

one more reason to deal face-to-face with a local shop

Wonk,

When will you be ready to buy back that sack of silver coins?

MediumTex wrote: Wonk,

When will you be ready to buy back that sack of silver coins?

When it starts looking attractive(which is not yet).  I had been keeping roughly equal portions of gold/silver/PM miners in the VP for a while until silver broke the gate and ran away.  Right now I see more opportunity in miners than I do anywhere else.  My first buy into silver was not long after the panic sell-off, below 13.  I took a look at gold/silver and with the ratio north of 70, I thought it looked cheap by comparison.  Right now it doesn't look super cheap.  I guess if the ratio gets back over 50 or the price moves down into the 20s I'll buy it back.  But it's really hard to argue with the miners.  They look really good right now. 

I'll fully admit, though, I got lucky with the silver sell.  There was really no good reason to sell, but it happened and worked out.  That said, if gold hits my targets in 3-5 years, I'll take full credit on that one and send Rick Ferri an autographed copy of "Why no one should listen to a word you have to say."

Wonk wrote: I'll take full credit on that one and send Rick Ferri an autographed copy of "Why no one should listen to a word you have to say."

Ironically, it was Rick Ferri's book All About Asset Allocation that got me interested in the PP to begin with.  I read it and then did a google search on asset allocation and came accross the PP.

MediumTex wrote: Wonk,

When will you be ready to buy back that sack of silver coins?

Today looks like a good day to buy that bag back.  Silver is officially a good deal again.

Wonk wrote:

MediumTex wrote: Wonk,

When will you be ready to buy back that sack of silver coins?

Today looks like a good day to buy that bag back.  Silver is officially a good deal again.

Silver has now gone down almost 25% in two days, right?

That's a pretty big drop, even for a volatile asset like silver.

Wonk wrote: Today looks like a good day to buy that bag back.  Silver is officially a good deal again.

This made me check the day's precious metals action.  Wow, nice beating for silver and gold the last few days!

BTW, Wonk, it's good to see you round the forums again.

@MT: Exactly--25% is a lot for 2 days.  Vertical moves in either direction don't typically last long before reversing.

@LW: Thanks!  Been busy with work and travel lately.  I'll pop my head in when something interesting happens. 10% daily moves count as "interesting."