Gyroscopic Investing

Hello,

Does anyone have experience with bullion vault (https://www.bullionvault.com/). The pricing seems good and I like the fact that you can pick a vault outside of the US. The gold is "allocated" and they are open for trading 24 hours. Any thoughts?

Laker wrote:Hello,

Does anyone have experience with bullion vault (https://www.bullionvault.com/). The pricing seems good and I like the fact that you can pick a vault outside of the US. The gold is "allocated" and they are open for trading 24 hours. Any thoughts?

You don't own it directly. Read the fine print. There's better options out there.

MG what do you think is a better option? What is the fine print that concerns you?

drumminj wrote:What is the fine print that concerns you?

Its like a bank. It's a liability on their books. Not kosher for owning gold. I think they talk about this some more somewhere in their FAQ.

I would just treat it as paper gold because that is what it is.

That does not match my understanding, so I'm curious to know what specifics make you believe that. As far as I'm aware, BV is allocated storage where ownership of the gold is in your name, and you having a custodial agreement with BV.

See https://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/ ... .html#What does it mean to have full legal ownership and title of physical gold in BullionVault

Is that worse than physical gold in your possession? Sure. But absent storing gold at home or in a safe deposit box, what better option is out there for large quantities?

drumminj wrote:That does not match my understanding, so I'm curious to know what specifics make you believe that. As far as I'm aware, BV is allocated storage where ownership of the gold is in your name, and you having a custodial agreement with BV.

See https://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/ ... .html#What does it mean to have full legal ownership and title of physical gold in BullionVault

Is that worse than physical gold in your possession? Sure. But absent storing gold at home or in a safe deposit box, what better option is out there for large quantities?

It seems to me they may have changed how they operate in the several years since I last checked them out, probably due to competition. So you now own a fractional interest in a bar or coin of gold outright as unllocated storage or are you now only limited to whole bars and coins to own as allocated? You can take delivery now. Before all you could do was buy and sell fractional shares of gold on their exchange -- it wasn't really a true custodian-vault setup. They had more emphasis on being an exchange.

It's comforting that Lord Rothschild is a direct investor now, I suppose.

I had my gold split between GTU and Bullionvault for about 5 years and have nothing but good things to say about the latter. You do own your gold, as the site makes clear, and the cost of doing so is half the ER of IAU, the cheapest of the ETFs.

5 choices of vaults as well, so those who wish to put Mr. Browne's advice about storing some assets outside the U.S. have plenty of choices. I'm actually surprised BV isn't the number one choice among PPers.

Kevin K. wrote:I had my gold split between GTU and Bullionvault for about 5 years

How about after the 5 years?

Sorry, I should have volunteered that info to begin with. I moved away from a pure PP allocation and liquidated my gold holdings, but when I get back in will certainly use BV.

Ok, thanks.
I do get the urge to liquidate gold, too.

I've been keeping an eye on bullion vault for a while - it does look like a good alternative to physical gold, and simpler/cheaper than the Perth Mint.

The storage locations you can pick are: New York, London, Singapore, Toronto, and Zurich. Thoughts on which option is preferred? I like either Zurich or Singapore. London would be useful for me because I travel to the UK on a fairly regular basis, but I'm a bit hesitant because of the crazy banking environment. No point to storing in Toronto. New York would be great if I weren't looking to put gold internationally.

sophie wrote:I've been keeping an eye on bullion vault for a while - it does look like a good alternative to physical gold, and simpler/cheaper than the Perth Mint.

The storage locations you can pick are: New York, London, Singapore, Toronto, and Zurich. Thoughts on which option is preferred? I like either Zurich or Singapore. London would be useful for me because I travel to the UK on a fairly regular basis, but I'm a bit hesitant because of the crazy banking environment. No point to storing in Toronto. New York would be great if I weren't looking to put gold internationally.

I'd go with Zurich if I used BullionVault. Call me old-fashioned, but I like the Gnomes of Zurich.

You'd have to decide if holding gold outside the U.S. actually provides another level of safety or not. Personally I think the always-formidable U.S. security and spy capabilities have certainly long since passed the point where - in the unlikely event the government wanted to confiscate your gold - they'd be able to do so, regardless of where it's held.

Here are BV's cautions to U.S. investors:

https://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/ ... dents.html

If you thoroughly examine the way BV is structured they cannot and will not report your transactions to any government authority. That and half the ongoing cost to hold of the cheapest ETF may be among the compelling reasons to consider using them.

Kevin K. wrote:If you thoroughly examine the way BV is structured they cannot and will not report your transactions to any government authority.

What happened when you liquidated? I assume you sold at a profit.

I like holding my physical at the bank but am not crazy about the markup, and holding some gold at Bullion Vault is beginning to look
attractive.

Their FAQ says

BullionVault does not issue Forms 1099. The information required to determine your profits should be available from your monthly statements.

Kevin K. wrote:You'd have to decide if holding gold outside the U.S. actually provides another level of safety or not. Personally I think the always-formidable U.S. security and spy capabilities have certainly long since passed the point where - in the unlikely event the government wanted to confiscate your gold - they'd be able to do so, regardless of where it's held.

Here are BV's cautions to U.S. investors:

https://www.bullionvault.com/help/FAQs/ ... dents.html

If you thoroughly examine the way BV is structured they cannot and will not report your transactions to any government authority. That and half the ongoing cost to hold of the cheapest ETF may be among the compelling reasons to consider using them.

Serious question: I get the SHTF purposes/rationale for gold but why store some overseas? Assuming you need it, how are you going to access it in a SHTF scenario? I'm also assuming no tax reporting evasion which the Swiss no longer assist.

Kbg wrote:Serious question: I get the SHTF purposes/rationale for gold but why store some overseas? Assuming you need it, how are you going to access it in a SHTF scenario?

I think the purpose of geographic diversification does not include real SHTF. Not prepper-level SHTF, anyway.
It's more about the following, although some of these can be addressed by holding gold elsewhere in your home country.
(A) Someone manages to steal your gold at home. You still have some overseas.
(B) Something goes screwy in your home country. Domestic seizure of gold. You still have some overseas.
(C) An earthquake or flood takes out the bank where you rent your safe deposit box, rendering your gold unrecoverable. You still have some overseas.
(D) You need to leave the country for some reason and cannot take your gold with you. There's some waiting for you overseas.

Libertarian666 wrote:I'd go with Zurich if I used BullionVault. Call me old-fashioned, but I like the Gnomes of Zurich.

Singapore is the Switzerland of Asia! But unlike Switzerland, they don't bend over for U.S. court orders.

Didn't BuillionVault run into legal trouble a few years ago? I can't remember the exact details.

I do think BullionVault and Hard Assets Alliance are reasonable choices for getting gold offshore. They're just fancy online front-ends for a network of gold dealers and private vaults via the gold place that technophobe likes, GlobalGold was it? Or its possible GlobalGold is using the same network setup. Or maybe not at all. But someone is providing it, maybe GoldMoney.

The difference is Hard Asset Alliance is American, so you don't have FATCA or future reporting obligations and all that jazz. You also have legal recourse which is going to be very difficult with a company incorporated in another country.

I'm still skeptical it is battle-tested legally that you actually own the gold directly held with either organization, especially if not segregated. They're at least acting as a custodian or bailee in some way. For this to work, I think you really need to be ahead of any possible trouble and liquidate your holdings and have the proceeds remitted to the homeland before the panic queue builds up.

Thank you DS and MG...I think if one REALLY thinks through physical gold's tangible issues it's really not all it's cracked up to be (or that safe). I had to chuckle when thinking about the safety of a company from the Channel Islands holding my gold vs. a CBOE gold futures contract...for safety reasons I'm going with CBOE. It's not even close. Having said that, I'm getting more inclined to have maybe a few month's day to day expenses in a mix of small gold and silver coins stored nearby.

For me there's value in the possibility of traveling to another country and "withdrawing" my gold, vs trying to travel with it (imagine Hillary gets elected and you want to GTFOOD). I'm sure there are other (possibly better? curious to hear) ways of having this option, and maybe it's an option I'll never exercise, but in theory it's an option I like to have.

drumminj wrote:(imagine Hillary gets elected and you want to GTFOOD).

Lest I inadvertently make this thread political, the above is a joke and just as easily could substitute "Trump" for "Hillary"... forgot the smiley face

Kbg wrote:Thank you DS and MG...I think if one REALLY thinks through physical gold's tangible issues it's really not all it's cracked up to be (or that safe).

Even though I worry about my own mistakes, I feel my coins at the bank are pretty safe. It's nice to have just a little something that is NOT subject to electronic theft.

I don't worry about my electronic stock shares too much, and I love the convenience. It's just nice to have a few coins, and I'm not all that crazy about gold ETFs even though I hold some, especially in retirement accounts.

Kbg wrote:Thank you DS and MG...I think if one REALLY thinks through physical gold's tangible issues it's really not all it's cracked up to be (or that safe). I had to chuckle when thinking about the safety of a company from the Channel Islands holding my gold vs. a CBOE gold futures contract...for safety reasons I'm going with CBOE. It's not even close. Having said that, I'm getting more inclined to have maybe a few month's day to day expenses in a mix of small gold and silver coins stored nearby.

I was wrong. Apparently they've relocated to London, probably after the venture capital investment a few years ago. But I swear there were on Sark or Jersey before the Rothschilds invested. I know GoldMoney is/was on Jersey but they've been bought out by BitGold, so who knows where they are now.

A futures contract isn't even remotely the same thing as real gold. It's just a legal fiction that can be bent to the whims of the U.S. government any which way it sees fit which is why there are 1099 reporting requirements for gold futures contracts and foreign bullion coins. In a currency crisis, they'll twist the noose even more.

My only comment on traveling to get your gold...if for some reason it is not accessible in the US due to gubmint confiscation and you want to come back to the US how does that work?

If you are worried about practical stuff like your bank disappears in a gigantic sink hole taking your gold with it, wouldn't good old fashioned safety deposit box or other insurance work better?

Kbg wrote:Thank you DS and MG...I think if one REALLY thinks through physical gold's tangible issues it's really not all it's cracked up to be (or that safe). I had to chuckle when thinking about the safety of a company from the Channel Islands holding my gold vs. a CBOE gold futures contract...for safety reasons I'm going with CBOE. It's not even close. Having said that, I'm getting more inclined to have maybe a few month's day to day expenses in a mix of small gold and silver coins stored nearby.

I don't know who was suggesting a company from the Channel Islands, but a company in Switzerland that has an agreement with a vaulting company to hold physical gold seems a lot safer to me than a CBOE futures contract, which may or may not (probably not) have any gold to back it up, and has an excellent chance of defaulting in the case of serious stress on the financial system.

But it's your money (so far, anyway).

Kbg wrote:My only comment on traveling to get your gold...if for some reason it is not accessible in the US due to gubmint confiscation and you want to come back to the US how does that work?

If you are worried about practical stuff like your bank disappears in a gigantic sink hole taking your gold with it, wouldn't good old fashioned safety deposit box or other insurance work better?

Who said anything about coming back?