Gyroscopic Investing

The tone of the forum has deteriorated lately. There has been a much higher-than normal amount of political bickering, and I think most of us would like to see it stop.

We're all smart, thoughtful people with different political ideas. Let's not turn this place into a place where everything is some variant of "democrats are evil!" "Republicans are facsists!" "statists are violent control freaks!" "anarcho-capitalists are unrealistic lunatics!"

If you can't discuss a topic without insulting alternative ideologies or intimating that people who believe them are foolish (or evil, or stupid, or naive, or whatever), then please don't say anything at all. Let's also try to avoid hijacking topics with our own personal ideologies, especially when used in an inflammatory way. Sometimes a discussion about gold is just a discussion about gold, and doesn't have to turn into a detailed explanation of why fiat money is inherently evil and anybody who doesn't forcefully oppose it is complicit in the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on humanity.

Thanks everyone.

It's very hard to have political discussions that don't become aggressive and insulting because of the passion that political topics evoke. 

I agree the board has become a little too aggressive.  I think that' because 90% of the conversations are Off Topic, many of which are political in nature.  Maybe it's the simplistic nature of the PP, but there seems to be very little PP related discussion now.

I think that stems from the fact that there may not be a lot more that hasn't already been covered previously.  I also think losing clive really hurt because even though he wasn't a big fan of the PP, he really put forth a lot of hard questions and interesting ideas.

I definitely agree that most of the action here is in Other Discussions because the PP is pretty well hashed-out at this point. However, I think that increases the importance of treating one another's ideas and opinions with respect.

It's pretty clear in general that discussions on the Internet can quickly sink to a level of mutual disrespect that people would be unlikely in face-to-face conversations. That's too bad but it just seems to be human nature. Let's hope we can evolve as a species to be more tolerant when there are personal differences.

I really think it's crucial to take what PS is saying to heart. A lot of the non-PP issues that are discussed on this forum are extremely complex which is why they are still issues after all this time. Having discussions about complex ideas requires listening to what folks with different opinions are saying, considering the value of those viewpoints and then either adjusting what we think or not. Productive discourse can be fascinating and open our minds to new ideas. At least that's how I feel. I hope that I am still learning up to the moment I kick.

Just an example... I have always been strongly against handguns. As humans we tend to surround ourselves with others that think more or less the same as we do and I have certainly done that with this issue and many others. But now I find myself on a forum where there are people with some good arguments for being armed and able to protect oneself and one's family... or to at least have that right. I can either listen to and weigh the validity of what they have to say (interesting) or immediately discard it as crazy right-wing extremism (boring).

Thank you for your open-mindedness, barrett! That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. We'll make a gun-toting, right-wing insurrectionist out of you yet... 

I wouldn't count on it, PS, but you never know. From reading a bunch of your posts, it's clear you have evolved over time. One of the biggest challenges/responsibilities we face with our daughter is to get her to think for herself. With issues like politics and religion, it's really hard not to try to impose your values on a young person. I want her to be on a search for what is true for her in the same way that I am. Of course I want her to think as I do on a lot of issues but I'd prefer that she develop the passion and analytical skills to at least come to those opinions on her own. That can only happen in an environment where a questioning mind is given a bit of room to consider a number of different approaches.

As I get older I am less and less drawn to spending time with people who always have a ready answer for everything.

I am in agreement with PointedStick. A degree of civility is necessary to carry on discussions of controversial topics. So let's all make an effort to cool it, eh? I have to confess that I read very few "Other Discussions" for this reason.

The classic rule is: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all;" amended by the waspish Washington society hostess Alice Roosevelt Longworth to be: "If you don't have something nice to say, come sit by me."

Speaking personally and with total objectivity, it is indisputable that the tone of this board would be instantly improved if all the Red Sox and Mets fans were immediately banned. Moderator, do your duty!

barrett wrote: I wouldn't count on it, PS, but you never know. From reading a bunch of your posts, it's clear you have evolved over time. One of the biggest challenges/responsibilities we face with our daughter is to get her to think for herself. With issues like politics and religion, it's really hard not to try to impose your values on a young person. I want her to be on a search for what is true for her in the same way that I am. Of course I want her to think as I do on a lot of issues but I'd prefer that she develop the passion and analytical skills to at least come to those opinions on her own. That can only happen in an environment where a questioning mind is given a bit of room to consider a number of different approaches.

I know exactly how you feel. I have a little one myself, and I think there's an inherent drive to create a little mini-me that you're always fighting. Because I'm coming to believe that in the end, you don't really have much control over your children's personality and interests at all. I came from a family where my parents tried very consciously to raise me in a particular way, but a lot of how they wanted me to behave simply didn't suit my inherent personality. I'm trying really hard to avoid doing the same thing to my son, but I'll probably fail. And then in 25 years he'll complain about me on an online forum.

The key, I think, is to try to accept other people as they are rather than wishing they were who we want them to be. It's so hard, but so necessary.

Pointedstick wrote:

barrett wrote: I wouldn't count on it, PS, but you never know. From reading a bunch of your posts, it's clear you have evolved over time. One of the biggest challenges/responsibilities we face with our daughter is to get her to think for herself. With issues like politics and religion, it's really hard not to try to impose your values on a young person. I want her to be on a search for what is true for her in the same way that I am. Of course I want her to think as I do on a lot of issues but I'd prefer that she develop the passion and analytical skills to at least come to those opinions on her own. That can only happen in an environment where a questioning mind is given a bit of room to consider a number of different approaches.

I know exactly how you feel. I have a little one myself, and I think there's an inherent drive to create a little mini-me that you're always fighting. Because I'm coming to believe that in the end, you don't really have much control over your children's personality and interests at all. I came from a family where my parents tried very consciously to raise me in a particular way, but a lot of how they wanted me to behave simply didn't suit my inherent personality. I'm trying really hard to avoid doing the same thing to my son, but I'll probably fail. And then in 25 years he'll complain about me on an online forum.

The key, I think, is to try to accept other people as they are rather than wishing they were who we want them to be. It's so hard, but so necessary.

PS,

I agree with the intent of your post wholeheartedly, but I at the same time admit that I frequently do not live up (i.e. practice) what I want to do.  I tried, rather unsuccessfully and covertly to get at your post's subject with my thread on "The Permanent Anti-Bitterness Regeime" but it did not garner a lot of traction; hopefully your more direct approach will. 

Thinking about what barrett said about politics and religion, I have come to the conclusion, after many years of resisting, that almost all issues ultimately reduce to those two.  There really is not much else of true importance.  What I mean by that is that we have a world to live in, with the rules established by those in charge (politics), and a world to look forward to, regardless of our religious beliefs (in other words we are all going to die and we try to make sense of why we are here and where we are going - religion).  Perhaps that is why so many of our discussions evolve (devolve?) to those two topics.

From my religious side, I too struggle with judging others, accepting others, and deeply caring about others.  On one hand, I try to accept others where they are (I would prefer the term "meet" others where they are but I can go with "accept").  On the other hand, I really do care about my fellow man, whether or not I have met him in person or on an internet forum.  Where my real struggle comes to play is likely me just wanting to be in control (not good) or perhaps just caring deeply to save others (purposeful) - when I see a conversation that is in obvious conflict with what I really believe is the ultimate source of truth and life and that some of those who believe differently than me are, in my humble opinion, headed for hell, I have trouble keeping my mouth (fingers off the keyboard) shut.  It is almost, to me, like seeing my child run into the street in front of a speeding car.  I know the outcome will be certain death if I do not intervene.  I also know that the child has to somehow learn not to run into the street when no one is there to save them.  It is a quandary.  Ultimately, I know that God is the one in charge and I need to let go and let Him do his work and if He so chooses elect none, some, or all of us.  I also know that God gave us a brain, reason and logic and I should use them to the best of my ability.  I need to accept God as my parent who is trying His best to show me paths that will not get me hurt or killed while at the same time doing what Jesus told us to do - make sure all hear Jesus' teachings, His saving Word.  Where I feel I fall short is not spreading God's Word in a kind considerate manner.  My very human (sinful?) nature just wants to get in the face of an unbeliever and scream as loud as possible: "Don't you get it dumb ass?  You are going to really, really suffer eternally if you don't repent and believe in the promises of Jesus." 

So, to all my forum friends, everytime I slip into being nasty which I'm sure I'll do no matter how hard I try not to, please point out my shortcomings and how I could say what I'm trying to say in a kinder manner.

... Mountaineer

I think we might be discovering why BH so aggressively prohibits political discussions.

rickb wrote: I think we might be discovering why BH so aggressively prohibits political discussions.

Yes, but unfortunately they are way too aggressive, also prohibiting any discussion of lots of things that aren't political by anyone else's definition, but ARE relevant to investing, e.g., possible changes in Social Security or tax laws.

Everyone knows what my position has always been on this topic:

I would like this forum to be an oasis of free speech where you can talk about anything you want without fear of someone censoring you or shutting down the discussion right when you think that it is getting interesting.

But a forum like that comes with a price, and the price is you have to be civil and courteous toward others.  There just isn't any way around that.  My opinion has always been that once people saw the enormous benefits of being able to talk about anything with a group of smart and interesting people, the civility and courtesy would flow naturally, and this has for the most part happened (with steady encouragement from a few especially even-tempered members here).

So this can be a great forum, and it is one of my favorite places on the internet, or it can easily become just one more noisy, nasty and unfriendly place on the internet.  Everyone here makes the choice about what kind of place it's going to be every time they post.

If you share my vision for what kind of forum I would like this to be, then please nurture that with the content of your posts.  If you don't share my vision, I would respectfully ask that you consider moving on to another forum.

It's hard to build a place like this with the people and atmosphere that we have.  It's very easy to tear it down.  Please keep that in mind.

Thanks.