Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

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Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Xan » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:50 am

Parts 1 and 2 of this article are relatively brief and fascinating:
1: http://pjmedia.com/blog/obamacares-cool ... epage=true
2: http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-wedding-tax ... epage=true

Obamacare is full of "cliffs" where $1 additional income costs many thousands of dollars.  Marginal rates at the cliffs work out to be 468,800% and 1,221,400%.  People with moderate incomes will face marginal tax rates of 32 to 50 percent.  (50%!)

The overall effect seems to be:
* people having their hours cut back so that employers don't hit thresholds
* people actively discouraged from working more via HUGE disincentives at the margin

which all sounds like doodle's vision of everybody working a few hours a week, and having the rest of their time free.  I think it's pretty likely that all that was unintentional, and a result of the "pass it so we can see what's in it" mentality.  But maybe it'll end up making things a smooth transition to the robotic future.

I still think the whole thing is awful, of course, but it's an interesting idea.  Horrifyingly (see the second article), the solution in many cases to the problem of the cliffs is to get divorced.  Especially if you have children.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:02 am

Xan wrote: Parts 1 and 2 of this article are relatively brief and fascinating:
1: http://pjmedia.com/blog/obamacares-cool ... epage=true
2: http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-wedding-tax ... epage=true

Obamacare is full of "cliffs" where $1 additional income costs many thousands of dollars.  Marginal rates at the cliffs work out to be 468,800% and 1,221,400%.  People with moderate incomes will face marginal tax rates of 32 to 50 percent.  (50%!)

The overall effect seems to be:
* people having their hours cut back so that employers don't hit thresholds
* people actively discouraged from working more via HUGE disincentives at the margin

which all sounds like doodle's vision of everybody working a few hours a week, and having the rest of their time free.  I think it's pretty likely that all that was unintentional, and a result of the "pass it so we can see what's in it" mentality.  But maybe it'll end up making things a smooth transition to the robotic future.

I still think the whole thing is awful, of course, but it's an interesting idea.  Horrifyingly (see the second article), the solution in many cases to the problem of the cliffs is to get divorced.  Especially if you have children.
What happens to the amount of goods and services available if people are working less?

What happens to people's income if they are working less?

What happens to tax receipts if people are working less?
Last edited by Kshartle on Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Mdraf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:15 am

Kshartle wrote:
Xan wrote: Parts 1 and 2 of this article are relatively brief and fascinating:
1: http://pjmedia.com/blog/obamacares-cool ... epage=true
2: http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-wedding-tax ... epage=true

Obamacare is full of "cliffs" where $1 additional income costs many thousands of dollars.  Marginal rates at the cliffs work out to be 468,800% and 1,221,400%.  People with moderate incomes will face marginal tax rates of 32 to 50 percent.  (50%!)

The overall effect seems to be:
* people having their hours cut back so that employers don't hit thresholds
* people actively discouraged from working more via HUGE disincentives at the margin

which all sounds like doodle's vision of everybody working a few hours a week, and having the rest of their time free.  I think it's pretty likely that all that was unintentional, and a result of the "pass it so we can see what's in it" mentality.  But maybe it'll end up making things a smooth transition to the robotic future.

I still think the whole thing is awful, of course, but it's an interesting idea.  Horrifyingly (see the second article), the solution in many cases to the problem of the cliffs is to get divorced.  Especially if you have children.
What happens to the amount of goods and services available if people are working less?

What happens to people's income if they are working less?

What happens to tax receipts if people are working less?
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:28 am

Mdraf wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
Xan wrote: Parts 1 and 2 of this article are relatively brief and fascinating:
1: http://pjmedia.com/blog/obamacares-cool ... epage=true
2: http://pjmedia.com/blog/the-wedding-tax ... epage=true

Obamacare is full of "cliffs" where $1 additional income costs many thousands of dollars.  Marginal rates at the cliffs work out to be 468,800% and 1,221,400%.  People with moderate incomes will face marginal tax rates of 32 to 50 percent.  (50%!)

The overall effect seems to be:
* people having their hours cut back so that employers don't hit thresholds
* people actively discouraged from working more via HUGE disincentives at the margin

which all sounds like doodle's vision of everybody working a few hours a week, and having the rest of their time free.  I think it's pretty likely that all that was unintentional, and a result of the "pass it so we can see what's in it" mentality.  But maybe it'll end up making things a smooth transition to the robotic future.

I still think the whole thing is awful, of course, but it's an interesting idea.  Horrifyingly (see the second article), the solution in many cases to the problem of the cliffs is to get divorced.  Especially if you have children.
What happens to the amount of goods and services available if people are working less?

What happens to people's income if they are working less?

What happens to tax receipts if people are working less?
Everybody gets poor - but, by gosh, it's FAIR
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Benko » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:47 am

Image
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:19 pm

Xan wrote: But maybe it'll end up making things a smooth transition to the robotic future.
Designing & Building robots sounds like a highly compensated occupation so it will be much more likely to occur here if we don't have Obamacare, since high compensation is penalized.

They will have to be designed and built somewhere else. The question is will Americans be able to afford them with their reduced incomes and higher tax rates?
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:47 pm

Benko wrote: Image
Every country in the developed world (excepting the US) has long realized that rationing health care on the basis of ability to pay is immoral. They all have some form of universal health care system. So you are saying that the rest f the world is somehow evil and we, being the only nation that allows people to die because they don't make enough money or their job doesn't pay benefits, are the last bastion of freedom in the world? I don't grasp the rational that says it's OK to have the government run a fire department, a police department, and armed forces, but not guarantee health care as a basic civil right. The logic, if there is any, strikes me as medieval.

But yeah, Obamacare is nuts. As Justice Scalia noted in his dissenting opinion in the healthcare case, it would have made more sense to just adopt a single payer system.

P.S. You do realize the photo is from the Great Depression and therefor more likely an indictment of pure capitalism than socialism?
Last edited by Ad Orientem on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:06 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: I don't grasp the rational that says it's OK to have the government run a fire department, a police department, and armed forces, but not guarantee health care as a basic civil right. The logic, if there is any, strikes me as medieval.

But yeah, Obamacare is nuts.
I completely agree. It's a hypocritical notion and I don't see how people can hold it and justify it. People who argue the point above are on very shaky ground in my opinion.

Health care isn't a right though, it's a good or service. It has to be provided by someone else, it doesn't just come from the sky. Who has a right to someone else's time and talents without fair compensation? That sounds like a master/slave relationship. To say that someone else owes you their time and or property and it will be taken by force sounds like the height of immorality.

Nuts? Yeah I just read an article in Forbes pointing out how insurance costs for younger people are going to double and triple. These young people can't even get jobs. How are they going to be able to afford it? They're not. They'll take the penalty and when there aren't enough young healthy payers to subsidise the older and sick it will have to be funded with higher taxes and more printing.

Maybe that was the goal all along.

Many countries bear the cost of socialism but at least they don't have the military empire draining them. The US is trying to do it all.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:10 pm

Kshartle wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: I don't grasp the rational that says it's OK to have the government run a fire department, a police department, and armed forces, but not guarantee health care as a basic civil right. The logic, if there is any, strikes me as medieval.

But yeah, Obamacare is nuts.
I completely agree. It's a hypocritical notion and I don't see how people can hold it and justify it. People who argue the point above are on very shaky ground in my opinion.

Health care isn't a right though, it's a good or service. It has to be provided by someone else, it doesn't just come from the sky. Who has a right to someone else's time and talents without fair compensation? That sounds like a master/slave relationship. To say that someone else owes you their time and or property and it will be taken by force sounds like the height of immorality.

Nuts? Yeah I just read an article in Forbes pointing out how insurance costs for younger people are going to double and triple. These young people can't even get jobs. How are they going to be able to afford it? They're not. They'll take the penalty and when there aren't enough young healthy payers to subsidise the older and sick it will have to be funded with higher taxes and more printing.

Maybe that was the goal all along.

Many countries bear the cost of socialism but at least they don't have the military empire draining them. The US is trying to do it all.
The goal all along was a single-payer system. After all the insurance companies go bankrupt from the effects of Obamacare, then they will have their justification for single-payer.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:12 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Benko wrote: Image
They all have some form of universal health care system. So you are saying that the rest f the world is somehow evil and we, being the only nation that allows people to die because they don't make enough money or their job doesn't pay benefits, are the last bastion of freedom in the world?
:) You'll never hear me make the claim that the US is the last bastion of freedom in the world.

Honest and sincere questions - I've heard it said many times that Health Care is a basic right because people need it to live. Ok.

Don't they need food, water, clothing and shelther much much more than health care though?

Are all those things basic rights?

Is everyone entitled to all of those also?

Since they all have to be provided by someone else, are people entitled to have other people be forced to work and provide them on their behalf?

I think if someone wants to make the claim that health care is a basic right they should be able to answer these questions. Otherwise they are being hypocritical.
Last edited by Kshartle on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:15 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: I don't grasp the rational that says it's OK to have the government run a fire department, a police department, and armed forces, but not guarantee health care as a basic civil right. The logic, if there is any, strikes me as medieval.

But yeah, Obamacare is nuts.
I completely agree. It's a hypocritical notion and I don't see how people can hold it and justify it. People who argue the point above are on very shaky ground in my opinion.

Health care isn't a right though, it's a good or service. It has to be provided by someone else, it doesn't just come from the sky. Who has a right to someone else's time and talents without fair compensation? That sounds like a master/slave relationship. To say that someone else owes you their time and or property and it will be taken by force sounds like the height of immorality.

Nuts? Yeah I just read an article in Forbes pointing out how insurance costs for younger people are going to double and triple. These young people can't even get jobs. How are they going to be able to afford it? They're not. They'll take the penalty and when there aren't enough young healthy payers to subsidise the older and sick it will have to be funded with higher taxes and more printing.

Maybe that was the goal all along.

Many countries bear the cost of socialism but at least they don't have the military empire draining them. The US is trying to do it all.
The goal all along was a single-payer system. After all the insurance companies go bankrupt from the effects of Obamacare, then they will have their justification for single-payer.
Bingo

As Harry Browne says the goverment will break your leg then hand you a crutch and say "look what I did for you".

They've almost completely destroyed the Health Care system in America and they will ride in as the saviors, you just need to give them complete control. They will do a fantastic job of it I'm sure like the post office, DMV, Amtrack, anything else.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by MediumTex » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:59 pm

Kshartle wrote: They've almost completely destroyed the Health Care system in America and they will ride in as the saviors, you just need to give them complete control. They will do a fantastic job of it I'm sure like the post office, DMV, Amtrack, anything else.
Is that perhaps overstating it a bit?

If I could get treated anywhere in the world for a serious illness, I would want to be treated at a hospital in a large U.S. city.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:01 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote: They've almost completely destroyed the Health Care system in America and they will ride in as the saviors, you just need to give them complete control. They will do a fantastic job of it I'm sure like the post office, DMV, Amtrack, anything else.
Is that perhaps overstating it a bit?

If I could get treated anywhere in the world for a serious illness, I would want to be treated at a hospital in a large U.S. city.
It is overstating it. They damaged it to where now many people claim there is a healthcare "crisis". Skyrocketing costs now being the problem and unaffordability for millions the result.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by MediumTex » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:10 pm

Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote: They've almost completely destroyed the Health Care system in America and they will ride in as the saviors, you just need to give them complete control. They will do a fantastic job of it I'm sure like the post office, DMV, Amtrack, anything else.
Is that perhaps overstating it a bit?

If I could get treated anywhere in the world for a serious illness, I would want to be treated at a hospital in a large U.S. city.
It is overstating it. They damaged it to where now many people claim there is a healthcare "crisis". Skyrocketing costs now being the problem and unaffordability for millions the result.
Sure, the government has done its best to mess it up, but every time I go to the doctor I'm always impressed with the quality of the doctors, equipment and care.

Do you agree that U.S. trained physicians as a group are the finest in the world?  How about U.S. hospitals?
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:13 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Is that perhaps overstating it a bit?

If I could get treated anywhere in the world for a serious illness, I would want to be treated at a hospital in a large U.S. city.
It is overstating it. They damaged it to where now many people claim there is a healthcare "crisis". Skyrocketing costs now being the problem and unaffordability for millions the result.
Sure, the government has done its best to mess it up, but every time I go to the doctor I'm always impressed with the quality of the doctors, equipment and care.

Do you agree that U.S. trained physicians as a group are the finest in the world?  How about U.S. hospitals?
I haven't experienced any outside of the US like most people I would think. I imagine governments in all countries interfere with the industry though. Perhaps some are more market driven than others.

Peyton Manning went out of the country to get his neck repaired. Now he's a baller with the entire world as an option unlike most of us. I don't know the details though.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by moda0306 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:25 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Is that perhaps overstating it a bit?

If I could get treated anywhere in the world for a serious illness, I would want to be treated at a hospital in a large U.S. city.
It is overstating it. They damaged it to where now many people claim there is a healthcare "crisis". Skyrocketing costs now being the problem and unaffordability for millions the result.
Sure, the government has done its best to mess it up, but every time I go to the doctor I'm always impressed with the quality of the doctors, equipment and care.

Do you agree that U.S. trained physicians as a group are the finest in the world?  How about U.S. hospitals?
I think any individual problem is amazingly addressed by our healthcare system (heart surgery, knee surgery, etc)

From what I've seen, in the areas of prevention and coordination of care in a complex scenario (my dad's stroke comes to mind... absolutely the biggest most uncoordinated mess I've ever seen combining emergecy room care, rehab, medication, and his underlying heart/cholesterol problem) are the areas where our system is very ineffective.  When my dad was in China, he had a different emergency, and the doctors there all came into the room together (heart doctor, neurologist) and actually (gasp) had a a real conversation with on another to coordinate the care based on the different moving pieces of what he had going on, and the care was great (according to him).

I think any time a medical proceedure looks more like someone picking out their favorite flavor of ice cream, the US system is going to kick ass.  Once you factor in preventative or coordination of care issues, I bet there are several better systems out there, hands down.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by pugchief » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:35 pm

MediumTex wrote: Sure, the government has done its best to mess it up, but every time I go to the doctor I'm always impressed with the quality of the doctors, equipment and care.

Do you agree that U.S. trained physicians as a group are the finest in the world?  How about U.S. hospitals?
How long do you think that will continue with rising tuition and educational debt pulling in one direction and decreased reimbursement and increased paperwork/compliance pulling in the other?
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Benko » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:38 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: Every country in the developed world (excepting the US) has long realized that rationing health care on the basis of ability to pay is immoral. They all have some form of universal health care system. So you are saying that the rest f the world is somehow evil and we, being the only nation that allows people to die because they don't make enough money or their job doesn't pay benefits, are the last bastion of freedom in the world?
\

1. If all you/democrats cared about was poor people having access to health care, then the answer is simple, give everyone under a certain income health care to whatever level you desire, and leave everyone else's heath care alone. 

2.  "rationing health care on the basis of ability to pay is immoral. "

A law which results in people being out of work/converting their jobs to part time is immoral (because of the results) and stupid because this result was predictable.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:48 pm

Benko wrote: A law which results in people being out of work/converting their jobs to part time is immoral (because of the results).
I don't disagree that it's immoral, but it's the means that make it immoral, not the results. If the results can be used to justify the means, all you end up with is people arguing every kind of evil and claiming the ends will justify it. Until we get past the ends justifying the means mentality we won't be able to do away with this nonsense.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:58 pm

Benko wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: Every country in the developed world (excepting the US) has long realized that rationing health care on the basis of ability to pay is immoral. They all have some form of universal health care system. So you are saying that the rest f the world is somehow evil and we, being the only nation that allows people to die because they don't make enough money or their job doesn't pay benefits, are the last bastion of freedom in the world?
\

..."rationing health care on the basis of ability to pay is immoral. "

A law which results in people being out of work/converting their jobs to part time is immoral (because of the results) and stupid because this result was predictable.
I completely agree. Which is why I support (with deep reservations) a single payer system like almost every other country in the civilized world has. Obamacare is a mess. It was an attempt to get everyone insured while bowing to the free market god.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Kshartle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:12 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: It was an attempt to get everyone insured while bowing to the free market god.
What on Earth does it have to do with the free market?

If Starbucks bribed politicians to force us to buy coffee every morning from them would you call that the free market?

What is your definition of the free market? This is crapitalism. Crony capitalism also know as Fascism, just another version of Statism.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by moda0306 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:14 pm

Kshartle wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: It was an attempt to get everyone insured while bowing to the free market god.
What on Earth does it have to do with the free market?

If Starbucks bribed politicians to force us to buy coffee every morning from them would you call that the free market?

What is your definition of the free market? This is crapitalism. Crony capitalism also know as Fascism, just another version of Statism.
So why don't we just cut the bull and institute single-payer, and if it doesn't work after 8 year people will hate it and we'll go back to what we have now, or maybe even a more capitalist system.
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:16 pm

Kshartle wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: It was an attempt to get everyone insured while bowing to the free market god.
What on Earth does it have to do with the free market?

If Starbucks bribed politicians to force us to buy coffee every morning from them would you call that the free market?

What is your definition of the free market? This is crapitalism. Crony capitalism also know as Fascism, just another version of Statism.
I gather you are also opposed to mandating auto insurance, and you oppose the existence of police departments and fire departments as these are supported by coercive taxation?
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by Ad Orientem » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:19 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: It was an attempt to get everyone insured while bowing to the free market god.
What on Earth does it have to do with the free market?

If Starbucks bribed politicians to force us to buy coffee every morning from them would you call that the free market?

What is your definition of the free market? This is crapitalism. Crony capitalism also know as Fascism, just another version of Statism.
So why don't we just cut the bull and institute single-payer, and if it doesn't work after 8 year people will hate it and we'll go back to what we have now, or maybe even a more capitalist system.
+1
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Re: Is Obamacare setting up doodle's vision of the future?

Post by moda0306 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:22 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
moda0306 wrote:
Kshartle wrote: What on Earth does it have to do with the free market?

If Starbucks bribed politicians to force us to buy coffee every morning from them would you call that the free market?

What is your definition of the free market? This is crapitalism. Crony capitalism also know as Fascism, just another version of Statism.
So why don't we just cut the bull and institute single-payer, and if it doesn't work after 8 year people will hate it and we'll go back to what we have now, or maybe even a more capitalist system.
+1
Let's remember that this is all a sliding scale.  Nothing is perfectly capitalistic or perfectly communistic/socialist... well maybe N. Korea is the latter but I bet even they pay doctors more than janitors to try to get them to learn medicine.
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