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open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:52 am
by stone
What's your opinion about the "Open Borders" idea? In principle I think it would be great if everyone were free to live wherever they fancied but unlike the Open Borders crew, I think discrepancies between how much people earn in different countries need to be ironed out BEFORE we can get to that situation and then freedom of movement will come about naturally.
http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ed/275332/
If People Could Immigrate Anywhere, Would Poverty Be Eliminated?
Some economists are pushing for "open borders"
What if there was a program that would cost nothing, improve the lives of millions of people from poorer nations, and double world GDP? At least one economist says that increased mobility of people is by far the biggest missed opportunity in development. And an informally aligned group of advocates is doing its best to make the world aware of the "open borders" movement, which suggests that individuals should be able to move between countries at will.
Vipul Naik is the face, or at least the voice, of open borders on the Internet. In March 2012, he launched Open Borders: The Case, a website dedicated to the idea. Naik, a Ph.D. candidate in mathematics at the University of Chicago, is striving for "a world where there is a strong presumption in favor of allowing people to migrate and where this presumption can be overridden or curtailed only under exceptional circumstances." Naik and his two primary co-writers, Nathan Smith and John Lee, parse research into immigration impacts, answering claims by those they call "restrictionists"--people who argue against open borders--and deconstructing writings on migration by economists, politicians, journalists, and philosophers.
I also had a go posting about this:
http://directeconomicdemocracy.wordpres ... n-borders/
http://directeconomicdemocracy.wordpres ... 07/28/490/
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 pm
by Ad Orientem
Utopianistic fantasy one step removed from anarchism. Open immigration worked in the United States only when we had lots of land (after we slaughtered and deported the original owners) and no welfare state. Immigrants coming off the boat knew they had to get a job quick, or starve.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:14 pm
by dualstow
I think most persons' answers will be based on where they live now.
Strongly against.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:39 pm
by Coffee
Ad Orientem wrote:
Utopianistic fantasy one step removed from anarchism. Open immigration worked in the United States only when we had lots of land (after we slaughtered and deported the original owners) and no welfare state. Immigrants coming off the boat knew they had to get a job quick, or starve.
To call them, 'original owners' is to apply a false narrative. They were nomadic savages who had no problem slaughtering innocent women and children, from what I've read. The concept of a nation-state was completely foreign to them.
Go back and read historical accounts of the period. Indian Country was a dangerous place. You were taking your life into your own hands if you chose to cross it.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:43 pm
by Benko
Does any country on the planet do this?
Given the prevelance of nanny/welfare states, how does this make financial sense?
Provide any reason why this makes sense without using the word "fair".
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:53 pm
by stone
The US Libertarian Party advocates open borders don't they?
http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration
I'm don't think its a good idea (unless and until there is MUCH less disparity in how much people earn in different countries) but I thought that this forum was a hotbed of libertarian views?
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:14 pm
by Ad Orientem
They do, and they are wrong.
I'm don't think its a good idea (unless and until there is MUCH less disparity in how much people earn in different countries) but I thought that this forum was a hotbed of libertarian views?
Libertarians are not monolithic. We have plenty of diversity on hot button topics. There is the anarcho-wing and the more moderate one. Officially libertarians support abortion rights, but at least a third (including me) are firmly pro-life.
Hell, I'm a monarchist! Try jamming that square peg into the libertarian round hole.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:17 pm
by Ad Orientem
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:18 pm
by Pointedstick
I would characterize this forum as a hotbed of free thinking more so than libertarianism.
And for the record, absent other policy changes, I don't support open borders either.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:20 pm
by stone
Ad Orientem wrote:
Libertarians are not monolithic. We have plenty of diversity on hot button topics. There is the anarcho-wing and the more moderate one. Officially libertarians support abortion rights, but at least a third (including me) are firmly pro-life.
Hell, I'm a monarchist! Trying jamming that square peg into the libertarian round hole.
I guess this site is more a hot bed of people who think for themselves.
Pointed Stick just beat me to this - saying the same thing!
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:42 pm
by Libertarian666
A welfare state is incompatible with open borders.
I know which of those two I would pick... and it's not a welfare state.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:12 pm
by Ad Orientem
Libertarian666 wrote:
A welfare state is incompatible with open borders.
I know which of those two I would pick... and it's not a welfare state.
Democracy is not compatible with small government. It is in the very nature of it that the group in power will use the state as a means to advance its agenda. But we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:29 am
by stone
Ad Orientem wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
A welfare state is incompatible with open borders.
I know which of those two I would pick... and it's not a welfare state.
Democracy is not compatible with small government. It is in the very nature of it that the group in power will use the state as a means to advance its agenda. But we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be.
I guess we only get decent governance if we are all constantly vigilant about ensuring that the correct balance is adhered to. Human societies always have the propensity to veer off down the hole.
Re: open borders
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:29 pm
by Coffee
As a side note:
My wife is Colombian. We lived together in a couple of different Latin American countries together before returning to Bogota to live with her family for awhile.
While we were going through the Visa process, we thought we make a backup plan of living in Ensenada, Mexico if her Visa was denied, until we could figure out another way.
But when we looked into it, the Mexicans made it damn near impossible for her. She would have needed a U.S. residency card in order to live in Mexico. I kid you, not.
And as an American, they don't make it quite easy, either. I always laugh when I hear Mexican politicians chastise America about how we should open our borders so that their nationals can come here.