Gyroscopic Investing

So, there has been a lot of debate here regarding the health effects of meat, but little discussion regarding the ethics of eating meat. I think it is much harder to justify its consumption once you are aware of the deplorable nature that most animals are raised in and the process by which they are slaughtered as well as the huge negative environmental impact that large scale meat production has. While there are more humane and environmentally sound ways to raise livestock, it is doubtful whether this could be done in a way that would be capable of feeding 7 billion people.

Should there be more stringent controls and standards placed on the manner in which animals are raised for consumption even though this would probably make meat much more expensive? A hundred years or so years after the liberation of humans in bondage, I view animals as the next frontier.

The director of the documentary Supersize Me also has a show called 30 days.  Similar to the movie, he conducts various experiments like trying to live on welfare for 30 days, or living in prison for 30 days.  He also makes volunteers step into other peoples shoes, like a devout Christian living with a Muslim family and practicing Islam for 30 days.  Some of the more religious episodes are not as good, because people have such entrenched beliefs that they rarely learn anything by the end.

The one episode I thought was amazing was when an avid hunter from North Carolina had to live with this girl from PITA in San Francisco.  There was a lot of "preaching" in the beginning on the evils of eating meat that he rightly resisted, but he soon started visiting some of the slaughterhouses.  After seeing the horrid conditions and abuse the animals had to endure, he completely changed his entire attitude.  While he didn't give up eating meat, he did begin advocating for more humane treatment of animals back home in North Carolina.  The whole process of his transformation was really eye-opening.

A lot of the animals are kept in such small cages that they can't move or turn around for their entire lives.  They become sickly and diseased (and this is the meat we end up eating).  Some of the truly ill animals are just left on the side of the rode to die, so weak that they can't even stand up.  Part of this episode involved the hunter going on a "rescue" where he would take in these animals and often be able to nurse them back to health.

I wouldn't mind paying a bit more for meat where the animals were raised in healthier, more humane conditions.  It likely that consuming such meat is healthier for you anyway.

I think there's a few issues wrapped into this:

1) Do animals have any sort of "rights?"

I tend to think they do, though not to any similar degree that a human does.  However, I realize the convenience of claiming moral superiority of my own life over another conscious being has its logical flaws.

2) Is factory farming ethical?

Not the way its done today... no.

3) Should hunting be grouped in with factory farming?

Absolutely not, IMO. And I have never shot an animal or gone huntingg.  Factory farming is essentially torturing animals in my view.  Hunting is shooting an animal for what will most often result in a quick death, when the alternative is that they maybe live a few more years only to freeze to death or be eaten alive from a predator.

Nature is "brutal," but it's not constantly torturous like factory farming can be. 

Hunting is probably by far the most humane (and sporting) method by which meat enters the human food chain.

Criticizing hunters for eating meat is a bit like criticizing a camper who uses a campfire for heat and cooking because of its contribution to global warming.

MediumTex wrote: Hunting is probably by far the most humane (and sporting) method by which meat enters the human food chain.

Criticizing hunters for eating meat is a bit like criticizing a camper who uses a campfire for heat and cooking because of its contribution to global warming.

Agreed.  Activists need to realize that focusing on hunters is absolutely ridiculous.  Focusing on factory farming, and moving it towards not only more healthy but more ethical farming is something that could do so much good for so many animals and Americans.

Similar to some of my stances around gun control, I think a healthy, sustainable hunting culture should be encouraged, but factory farming regulated much more heavily for the potential effects this crap process is having on the food we intake.  But in the end, it's most likely going to have to be individuals who take it upon themselves to improve the meat they eat, as the government's in bed with agriculture.

Many people function best when they eat e.g. beef/animal protein.  They feel better when they eat it regularly and get cravings for it when they don't.  There are certain substances which are beneficial for human e.g. carnitine, etc found primarily in meat.  So if you are one of those people (try it for yourself and see what your experience is) who do best eating meat, and you avoid it for intellectual reasons, you are harming yourself.  This is reality for many people. 

"I think it is much harder to justify its consumption"

Presuming that you know what is best for everyone, is a common personality trait. 

If I thought the hippies were only interested in the welfare of the animals I might be more sympathetic to their desire to shutdown factory farms, which are terrible. Since I know that many in fact see the "victory" as a moratorium on the consumption of animal protein, they are my adversaries.

Our options are:

1. Imposed vegetarianism.
2. Status Quo
3. Factory farms with as many improvements as are economically viable.

I vote option 3. Factory farms are all that makes animal protein remotely affordable for the poor. Drastic improvements are needed but economic viability can't become the lowest priority for these operations.

RuralEngineer wrote: If I thought the hippies were only interested in the welfare of the animals I might be more sympathetic to their desire to shutdown factory farms, which are terrible. Since I know that many in fact see the "victory" as a moratorium on the consumption of animal protein, they are my adversaries.

Our options are:

1. Imposed vegetarianism.
2. Status Quo
3. Factory farms with as many improvements as are economically viable.

I vote option 3. Factory farms are all that makes animal protein remotely affordable for the poor. Drastic improvements are needed but economic viability can't become the lowest priority for these operations.

How about putting up a closed circuit video feed of a feedlot operation next to the meat counter in grocery stores.

That would be a hoot.

MediumTex wrote:

RuralEngineer wrote: If I thought the hippies were only interested in the welfare of the animals I might be more sympathetic to their desire to shutdown factory farms, which are terrible. Since I know that many in fact see the "victory" as a moratorium on the consumption of animal protein, they are my adversaries.

Our options are:

1. Imposed vegetarianism.
2. Status Quo
3. Factory farms with as many improvements as are economically viable.

I vote option 3. Factory farms are all that makes animal protein remotely affordable for the poor. Drastic improvements are needed but economic viability can't become the lowest priority for these operations.

How about putting up a closed circuit video feed of a feedlot operation next to the meat counter in grocery stores.

That would be a hoot.

I think most people prefer to remain ignorant about what they put in their mouths and how it gets there. It is hard for me to imagine anyone not adjusting their meat consumption habits after witnessing the way that animals are treated in the factory farm system. I also find it peculiar how some people can show such loving compassion towards their housepets, yet remain so callous towards the treatment of other animals. Again, I believe that once gay rights is behind us, animal rights and welfare will be the next hurdle to get past. Ultimately I think that this gets solved technologically by the creation of essentially in-vitro meat. The complications involved in raising a living animal for a meat product seems quite antiquated to me. It would be much more efficient to simply grow chicken nuggets in a lab rather than to have to go through all the processing that takes them from feathered bird to nugget today.

doodle wrote:

MediumTex wrote:

RuralEngineer wrote: If I thought the hippies were only interested in the welfare of the animals I might be more sympathetic to their desire to shutdown factory farms, which are terrible. Since I know that many in fact see the "victory" as a moratorium on the consumption of animal protein, they are my adversaries.

Our options are:

1. Imposed vegetarianism.
2. Status Quo
3. Factory farms with as many improvements as are economically viable.

I vote option 3. Factory farms are all that makes animal protein remotely affordable for the poor. Drastic improvements are needed but economic viability can't become the lowest priority for these operations.

How about putting up a closed circuit video feed of a feedlot operation next to the meat counter in grocery stores.

That would be a hoot.

I think most people prefer to remain ignorant about what they put in their mouths and how it gets there. It is hard for me to imagine anyone not adjusting their meat consumption habits after witnessing the way that animals are treated in the factory farm system. I also find it peculiar how some people can show such loving compassion towards their housepets, yet remain so callous towards the treatment of other animals.

Callous toward the treatment of other animals?  How about the hypocrisy in the way that they treat other people?

Consider this: Most people who are religious subscribe to a belief system in which God will give them a special reward after they die if they follow all of the rules of their religion and structure their beliefs properly.  The downside to this arrangement is that if you DON'T follow the rules and/or structure your beliefs properly God might respond to this by banishing you to an eternity of the worst imaginable suffering.

The parallel is this: a person's dog is often equivalent to other people of his own religion, while the factory farmed animals are sort of equivalent to people of other religions who may be nice people but whose eternal fates will be very different.

In other words, the same thing that allows people to love their dog and eat meat that is the result of a process in which animals suffer enormously is not that different from a set of religious beliefs whose coherence depends on the idea that most people outside of the faith will be subject to an eternity of suffering following the death of their mortal form, while a small group of followers of the one true religion will enjoy an eternity of heavenly bliss.

You see the tension I am describing and the different ways in which it manifests?  We are quirky beings indeed!

To paraphrase Benjamin Franklin, the problem with being reasonable creatures is that we can find a reason to do (or believe) almost anything, including chilling out with your dog while you snack on a piece of meat that resulted from a pig or a cow suffering for most of its life in order to make it cost 20 cents less a pound.

I used to absolutely love meat. However, I have been with my vegan GF for over 3.5 years and it has changed the way I see things. I still eat meat, but it is less frequent and I try to be conscious of what the animals conditions were like during the course of its life (so I would absolute love to eat hunted meat over farmed). The explosion of meat eating is a relatively new part of human existence and it probably has a lot to do with the massive amounts of coal and oil that were harnessed over the last two centuries. I have noticed that my body feels better not eating it every single day. Now it is more of treat 

What would you have us all do?  Meat is part of a biologically optimal diet at the same time it is prohibitively expensive (unless you're super-rich like Gumby ) if it is humanely raised.

The way I deal with the potential negative karma is as per a Native American; I give thanks to the animal's departed soul for its suffering and for giving up its life before I eat it.

I can't wait for cloned meat, but most likely, it probably won't be as healthy as the real thing by lacking micro-nutritional and genomic diversity or who knows what.  It's always something when tinkering with Mother Nature.

I think potentially the largest hurdle with meat is the fact that it has become such a central part of our food culture in America. What would the 4th of July be without hotdogs and hamburgers? Unfortunately other cultures are beggining to adopt the meat heavy STandard American Diet which has some serious environmental consequences not to mention all the ethical issues with the factory farm system.  Luckily culture is flexible and it can change. There are regions in India where because of culture everyone is vegetarian and that is perfectly natural. There is no reason why a culture couldnt begin to evolve in America that emphasized different dishes and eating habits. Perhaps one solution could be to switch ones meat consumption towards animals that are native to the region where you live (bison, deer, fowl, fish for Us) combined with education about right sizing portions. I think most people eat much more meat than they need to because they are unaware of how much protein is optimal for them. Meat is very nutrient dense so i imagine you wouldnt need a lot. Perhaps also that portion could be stretched to seem larger than it is by possibly combining meat in stew like dishes or such. Also, instead of identifying American food as steak, hotdogs, or other some such meat dish...gradually a shift could be made (maybe starting in school lunch rooms???) to emphasize other less meat focused foods....

This is really something everyone should watch, even though it is not pleasant.
Earthlings (COMPLETE MOVIE) animal cruelty treatment fur meat vivisection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19eBAfUF ... verified=1

You have to wonder about the people running factory farming operations where these conditions exist.  To become so desensitized to the brutality inflicted on these animals is downright scary.  It's similar(but clearly not the same) to the way people looked the other way during mass genocides throughout human history.  And this is coming from a hunter and unabashed meat eater for life!

I can't help but think if--as a society--we demand the humane and ethical treatment of animals, it will help us in peaceful relations with each other.

doodle wrote: I I think most people eat much more meat than they need to because they are unaware of how much protein is optimal for them. Meat is very nutrient dense so i imagine you wouldn't need a lot.

  i was very surprised to discover how little meat i ended up eating when i went on a low carb/paleo diet, prior to eliminating bread,grains and sugar from my diet i could easily sit down and eat an entire steak or a couple large burgers.. after cutting carbs a 9 or 10 oz piece of meat seamed like a huge portion... appetite, especially the American appetite has been warped out of proportion by all kinds of factors, including processed food, additives and carbs/sugars... 

l82start wrote: i was very surprised to discover how little meat i ended up eating when i went on a low carb/paleo diet

Out of curiosity, what did you end up eating?  Typically a low carb/paleo diet requires a higher protein & fat consumption.  Did you eat more fish or just eat meat in smaller portions?

l82start wrote:

doodle wrote: I I think most people eat much more meat than they need to because they are unaware of how much protein is optimal for them. Meat is very nutrient dense so i imagine you wouldn't need a lot.

  i was very surprised to discover how little meat i ended up eating when i went on a low carb/paleo diet, prior to eliminating bread,grains and sugar from my diet i could easily sit down and eat an entire steak or a couple large burgers.. after cutting carbs a 9 or 10 oz piece of meat seamed like a huge portion... appetite, especially the American appetite has been warped out of proportion by all kinds of factors, including processed food, additives and carbs/sugars... 

I've also noticed that with the elimination of the foods you mentioned how quickly weights drops off. When I eat healthy and workout a little my body fat quickly drops to under 10% within a few weeks.

Another thing that I have started doing is making my own vegetable burgers out of lots of things. Essentially any vegetable that isnt too watery (beans, spinach, broccoli, zuchinni etc) can be ground up and mixed with eggs and a little rice and breadcrumbs to make a burger patty. I just pan fry them and they come out great. If you make them right they even have a good bite to them which satisfies a lot of the attractive chewy mouth feel that meat provides.

Wonk wrote:

l82start wrote: i was very surprised to discover how little meat i ended up eating when i went on a low carb/paleo diet

Out of curiosity, what did you end up eating?  Typically a low carb/paleo diet requires a higher protein & fat consumption.  Did you eat more fish or just eat meat in smaller portions?

I cant speak for l82 but fruit and vegetables probably form 50% of my diet, another 30% is grains like rice, quinoa, buckwheat (not a type of wheat despite name), legumes like lentils and beans, and nuts.  The remaining 20% is dairy, eggs, and meat. I would say the meat comprises about 10% of my calories and I do take one protein shake per day as a snack. That is what works for me.

Wonk wrote:

l82start wrote: i was very surprised to discover how little meat i ended up eating when i went on a low carb/paleo diet

Out of curiosity, what did you end up eating?  Typically a low carb/paleo diet requires a higher protein & fat consumption.  Did you eat more fish or just eat meat in smaller portions?

it varied depending on whether i was in the weight loss phase or the stable diet phase of the low carb/palio diet, during the weight loss portion i ate eggs, cheese, butter, ham, chicken, red meat, snacked on pork rinds or nuts and had a small portion of veggies with each meal i also stayed away from starches. not only did i loose weight but my appetite decreased significantly, the volume of food i wanted or needed to feel full went from heaping plates to fist size portions, i also ate some fish but probably nowhere near as much as a proper paleo dieter should eat due to high cost and the lack of ease to get quality fish, (fish is not my favorite to begin with and i have a deep skepticism about the quality of most of what you see on store shelf's). after that for the stable diet i added in a few carbs some rice or potatoes the occasional dark chocolate as a treat and so on, as long as i don't go crazy and eat to much processed food, bread, soda etc.. my appetite stays about the same and the weight stays off..

l82start wrote:

Wonk wrote:

l82start wrote: i was very surprised to discover how little meat i ended up eating when i went on a low carb/paleo diet

Out of curiosity, what did you end up eating?  Typically a low carb/paleo diet requires a higher protein & fat consumption.  Did you eat more fish or just eat meat in smaller portions?

it varied depending on whether i was in the weight loss phase or the stable diet phase of the low carb/palio diet, during the weight loss portion i ate eggs, cheese, butter, ham, chicken, red meat, snacked on pork rinds or nuts and had a small portion of veggies with each meal i also stayed away from starches. not only did i loose weight but my appetite decreased significantly, the volume of food i wanted or needed to feel full went from heaping plates to fist size portions, i also ate some fish but probably nowhere near as much as a proper paleo dieter should eat due to high cost and the lack of ease to get quality fish, (fish is not my favorite to begin with and i have a deep skepticism about the quality of most of what you see on store shelf's). after that for the stable diet i added in a few carbs some rice or potatoes the occasional dark chocolate as a treat and so on, as long as i don't go crazy and eat to much processed food, bread, soda etc.. my appetite stays about the same and the weight stays off..

The only type of fish I feel comfortable with anymore is small north atlantic fish like herring and wild salmon. The rest Im wary of....

As a meat eater, I am doing my part by dying younger than vegetarians. Vegetarians will live longer, selfishly continuing to use the resources of the planet: water, oil, etc. By taking myself out relatively early with a grass-fed-beef-clogged small intestine, I am saving countless gallons of those resources, as well as megawatts upon megawatts of electricity.

Still, I'm not going to take up smoking or anything. Hey, I'm not an angel. But I'm doing my part.



Seriously, though, I do care about the ethical treatment of animals and I really don't eat much "factory meat." I know the farm where my beef comes from. The animals are well treated. One of the employees -- the sister of my vendor -- is a vegetarian. She figures it's better to support ethical places like this farm than to avoid or ignore the issue altogether, and she's not the type to firebomb ConAgra.

dualstow wrote:Seriously, though, I do care about the ethical treatment of animals and I really don't eat much "factory meat." I know the farm where my beef comes from. The animals are well treated. One of the employees -- the sister of my vendor -- is a vegetarian. She figures it's better to support ethical places like this farm than to avoid or ignore the issue altogether, and she's not the type to firebomb ConAgra.

I recently read the book "Eating Animals", and the author mentions a slaughterhouse that is owned and run by vegetarians.  Apparently it's the same mindset as the sister of your vendor; they figure if animals are going to be slaughtered for meat, then at least it should be done ethically, humanely, and without pain or distress for the animals. 

Still, as a vegetarian myself for over 20 years, I couldn't bring myself to work at a slaughterhouse no matter how humane it was.  But I can appreciate their efforts. 

rocketdog wrote: I recently read the book "Eating Animals", and the author mentions a slaughterhouse that is owned and run by vegetarians.

Interesting! I heard that book was a good read.

doodle wrote:
The only type of fish I feel comfortable with anymore is small north atlantic fish like herring and wild salmon. The rest Im wary of....

Catch your own. Give Bluegill or Crappie a try. Absolutely delicious and the U.S. is infested with them. Bluegill in particular are actually considered invasive in some areas because of how prolific they are now that they've been introduced.

I love catfish as well, but some people have issues with it for being a "bottom feeder."  More for me.