Gyroscopic Investing

For the past six months, I've been reporting on the growth of federal disability programs. I've been trying to understand what disability means for American workers, and, more broadly, what it means for poor people in America nearly 20 years after we ended welfare as we knew it. Here's what I found.

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

MachineGhost wrote: For the past six months, I've been reporting on the growth of federal disability programs. I've been trying to understand what disability means for American workers, and, more broadly, what it means for poor people in America nearly 20 years after we ended welfare as we knew it. Here's what I found.

http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting. I will say though this doesn't give me hope for the future...

Thanks, MG. A real eye-opener!

Thanks for posting, MG.  A very intelligent analysis.

A big factor pushing people onto disability that the article only touched on briefly is that pre-Obamacare, it's the only way to get health insurance if you're not financially independent, have a chronic condition and lose your job.  Even if you get another job, your condition is unlikely to be covered unless the benefits are very good, since it's pre-existing.

It's possible that Obamacare will cut down on disability applications, but that remains to be seen.  I'm sure a lot of people are quite happy being on disability, but the application process is sufficiently onerous that many of them might not have gone that route if they weren't forced into it.

My Dad retired at the age of 60, mostly because his employer (Borden's Milk Company) eliminated the only job he ever had in his whole life as a milkman except for 4 years in the Army during WWII. He initially filed a claim for Social Security Disability due to arthritis in his knees which he claimed (and I don't doubt) was the result of climbing in and out of his milk truck onto hard pavement 7 days a week until unions negotiated it down to 6 days and then 5. The claim was initially denied so he engaged the services of a specialist in disability claims and eventually won. He is still alive although in hospice care, at age 94. He never worked another day in his life after winning the disability claim. I don't think it paid all that much but it was enough to tide them over until full social security benefits kicked in and my grandparents died and left them an expected modest inheritance.

I'm actually sitting here and trying to articulate how I feel about the concept outlined in this piece of work. I'm almost 64 and dealing with the complications of sitting on my ass programming computers for almost 40 years (How many people in the world can make a statement like that?). I have already been to therapy for my neck and my back is next in line. As a libertarian (for lack of a better term), I don't think this should be anybody else's problem but my own and I can't even imagine filing a disability claim but if my job was eliminated for good, who knows (well, I'm old enough to collect SS now so it's a moot point for me).

That article really blew my mind, but mostly because of my own naivete.  I had no idea of the extent of "disability" checks.  I thought disability was something that insurance companies paid for for civilians, but the government paid for for government workers, military personnel, cops, etc.  Now that I know what reality is, I'm feeling kind of embarrassed FOR those people who are collecting checks from our government for bullshit reasons.

I'm with you, Krieg...  I really thought that people "on disability" were generally collecting an insurance benefit they (or their employer) had paid premiums for.  I had no idea it was government cheese!

The article wasn't explicit that Social Security Disability Income (SSDI) can only be claimed on a wage earner's Social Security record that has enough credits within the past 10 years of the disability onset, either the claimant's own earnings record or another wage earner's if the claimant was disabled during childhood and there is or was a family relationship.  It is not general welfare.  Furthermore, there is a total family benefit maximum of 150% of the wage earner's expected retirement benefit for all sources of Social Security and 75% per claimant for SSDI.

Also unmentioned is that Medicare Part B premiums (Part A is free) are deducted from SSDI unless the recipient's total income and assets are low enough that the state offers to cover it.  Likewise under similar conditions, SSA will cover Medicare Part D, if not opted into a Medicare Advantage plan (which covers Part A, B & D).  SSDI recipients can be on both Medicaid and Medicare, though Medicaid acts as secondary payor.  There's usually a few things Medicaid covers that Medicare does not.

Xan wrote: I'm with you, Krieg...  I really thought that people "on disability" were generally collecting an insurance benefit they (or their employer) had paid premiums for.  I had no idea it was government cheese!

Those people working for companies who have disability benefits as part of their employment package, or who are paying premiums for private disability insurance often don't realize one of the most important provisions of that insurance/benefit:  if you find yourself disabled from working a normal job, you are REQUIRED to apply for Social Security Disability and any other government benefits (state, local, federal) as part of the claims process.

The insurance company or benefits administrator, if you are approved, will subtract the total of those government benefits from whatever they owe you.  (Go read your disability benefits contract, usually this is covered in a section called "coordination of benefits" but it may also be described elsewhere in the paperwork.)

So if you're enrolled in a private disability plan in the USA, you will be required to  apply for government disability, or you won't get any private disability benefits at all.

WiseOne wrote: A big factor pushing people onto disability that the article only touched on briefly is that pre-Obamacare, it's the only way to get health insurance if you're not financially independent, have a chronic condition and lose your job.  Even if you get another job, your condition is unlikely to be covered unless the benefits are very good, since it's pre-existing.

This is true.  And it moves the decision to go on disability from a theoretical, scamming the government issue, to something a lot closer to living vs. dying (as many chronic diseases, left untreated, bring on a slow, or not so slow, death).

It's possible that Obamacare will cut down on disability applications, but that remains to be seen.  I'm sure a lot of people are quite happy being on disability, but the application process is sufficiently onerous that many of them might not have gone that route if they weren't forced into it.

From what I have observed it is a very onerous process, and people sometimes die while being turned down and waiting for appeals.  These are ordinary, middle-class people who have worked all their lives and paid up for these disability benefits.  They have no familiarity with poverty-related government programs (except for those being helped by the consulting firms working for the states), and no ethic of grifting, scamming, or other ways to get by without working.

The question I have:  Has something happened in the last 40 years to cause Americans to be the sickest in the developed world despite paying the most for health care?  Maybe if we fixed the problems causing that, there would be fewer people needing to live on disability payments.

An exception to my general comments: The Long Island Rail Road disability scam that has been going on so long that it was built into the system.

notsheigetz wrote: I'm actually sitting here and trying to articulate how I feel about the concept outlined in this piece of work. I'm almost 64 and dealing with the complications of sitting on my ass programming computers for almost 40 years (How many people in the world can make a statement like that?). I have already been to therapy for my neck and my back is next in line. As a libertarian (for lack of a better term), I don't think this should be anybody else's problem but my own and I can't even imagine filing a disability claim but if my job was eliminated for good, who knows (well, I'm old enough to collect SS now so it's a moot point for me).

Not many people have been programming for 40 years, but I'm one of them. I've been a programmer since 1969. Well, other than a couple of years as a technical writer, but I still have you beat by a couple of years.

I have a private disability policy that I have been paying on for many years, so if I become disabled before retirement, I should be able to collect on that.

However, although I yield to no one in my libertarian consistency, since I have been forced to pay into SS all these years, I would not hesitate to claim disability if I qualified under their rules, nor would I counsel anyone else to hesitate in such a case. When people force you to deal with them, moral compunctions don't apply.

Of course, prudential issues do apply, which is why I follow all the rules to the best of my ability in my dealings with the government, but if they allow me to collect money for disability from their forced "insurance", I can't see anything wrong with that.

smurff wrote: The question I have:  Has something happened in the last 40 years to cause Americans to be the sickest in the developed world despite paying the most for health care?  Maybe if we fixed the problems causing that, there would be fewer people needing to live on disability payments.

Yes. Gumby will no doubt chime in, but I believe unhealthy diets are at the root of the problem. Bad diet is more environmental and behavioral than medical in nature, but treating its symptoms medically is a very expensive proportion, explaining the astronomical amount spend in America to treat "chronic illness" all the while more people seem to be getting them. When I was a kid, I used to know a couple of people who ate mostly junk; TV dinners, packaged lunch packets, Cheetos etc, whole packages of M&Ms, 10 Cokes a day, and worse. Needless to say, almost all of these people are obese and afflicted with various "chronic illnesses."

Libertarian666 wrote: Not many people have been programming for 40 years, but I'm one of them. I've been a programmer since 1969. Well, other than a couple of years as a technical writer, but I still have you beat by a couple of years.

Yes you do. I was in Vietnam in 1969 and had never even seen a computer. That must have been unit record equipment you worked on back then. I did a little board wiring and punched card programming back in the day myself.

At this point a bigger worry than my neck and my back is going batshit crazy - mostly because the bureaucrats, paper pushers, and low level managers seem to outnumber the technicians by about 10 to 1 nowadays.

Still planning on trying to last 4 more years but don't know if I'll make it or not.

notsheigetz wrote:

Libertarian666 wrote: Not many people have been programming for 40 years, but I'm one of them. I've been a programmer since 1969. Well, other than a couple of years as a technical writer, but I still have you beat by a couple of years.

Yes you do. I was in Vietnam in 1969 and had never even seen a computer. That must have been unit record equipment you worked on back then. I did a little board wiring and punched card programming back in the day myself.

At this point a bigger worry than my neck and my back is going batshit crazy - mostly because the bureaucrats, paper pushers, and low level managers seem to outnumber the technicians by about 10 to 1 nowadays.

Still planning on trying to last 4 more years but don't know if I'll make it or not.

No, not unit record equipment, real computers like the IBM 360/65. Through a time-sharing terminal, not "in person", and in BASIC, not assembler or other low-level languages; that came later.

I had actually retired a couple of years ago, which I was able to do largely due to my over-investment in a particular shiny element .  But my wife told me I was driving her crazy and to get a job. So I did. 

Currently receiving 100% disability from the Veterans Administration related to agent orange exposure.
I served 3 years as an officer in the Army many years ago.I receive right at $3000(non taxable) per month plus health care
for me and my bride.
I would be fine without this compensation but decided I earned it based on the low pay ($92 to start)I received plus
the hostile places they sent me.
By the way,Annie is the Burmese mountain dog that adopted us.She is to die for.

annieB wrote: Currently receiving 100% disability from the Veterans Administration related to agent orange exposure.
I served 3 years as an officer in the Army many years ago.I receive right at $3000(non taxable) per month plus health care
for me and my bride.
I would be fine without this compensation but decided I earned it based on the low pay ($92 to start)I received plus
the hostile places they sent me.
By the way,Annie is the Burmese mountain dog that adopted us.She is to die for.

Interesting. What conditions did you have that were caused by agent orange, if you don't mind my asking?

I had plenty of exposure myself. I know some things like Hodgkins Lymphoma result in automatic qualification but others are more questionable, such as my three kids all born with severe learning disabilities.

Thanks for letting us know, AnnieB.

I have a family member who was a helicopter mechanic for the Navy during Vietnam.  He was left disabled when the cast iron hatch door (for going below) on the aircraft carrier where he served fell on his head, causing a traumatic brain injury.  He receives disability from the VA, but how much I'm not sure.  I was told that the amount is less than normal because his medical records were a casualty of the Great St Louis fire of 1974.

My payments are for lung cancer found and removed 4.5 years ago.
I still have lots of after effects that limit me but have not had any return
of cancer.I have a good life.

I do see lots of veterans trying to get thru the system for compensation.
It is a vast web to travel.The young guys coming in now are generally
too mucked up to effectively deal with the system.And,there are lots of
folks trying to game the system.

Notsheigetz:

I was with the 1ST Air Cav when you were there.
Welcome home...

annieB wrote: My payments are for lung cancer found and removed 4.5 years ago.
I still have lots of after effects that limit me but have not had any return
of cancer.I have a good life.

I do see lots of veterans trying to get thru the system for compensation.
It is a vast web to travel.The young guys coming in now are generally
too mucked up to effectively deal with the system.And,there are lots of
folks trying to game the system.

69-70

Brownwater Navy

Returned just in time to watch the Cambodian invasion after hauling loads of cargo up there.

Sorry to hear about your lung cancer but glad to year you have beaten it. I know a lot don't.

My parents used to have a neighbor who was in her 50s.  The things I remember about her include her chasing her grandkids all over her yard and recharging the battery in her car every day rather than just buying a new battery.

When my mother went to apply for Social Security benefits when she reached age 65, she said she saw this neighbor in the office waiting area, except she almost didn't recognize her.  She was wearing dark glasses like a blind person wears, she was in a wheelchair and she had on a neck brace.

A few days later I saw her back in her yard chasing around her grandkids.

MediumTex wrote: My parents used to have a neighbor who was in her 50s.  The things I remember about her include her chasing her grandkids all over her yard and recharging the battery in her car every day rather than just buying a new battery.

When my mother went to apply for Social Security benefits when she reached age 65, she said she saw this neighbor in the office waiting area, except she almost didn't recognize her.  She was wearing dark glasses like a blind person wears, she was in a wheelchair and she had on a neck brace.

A few days later I saw her back in her yard chasing around her grandkids.

What is the penalty for disability fraud against the government?

Pointedstick wrote: When I was a kid, I used to know a couple of people who ate mostly junk; TV dinners, packaged lunch packets, Cheetos etc, whole packages of M&Ms, 10 Cokes a day, and worse. Needless to say, almost all of these people are obese and afflicted with various "chronic illnesses."

I remember a handful of kids like that too and even back then it was bizarrely weird.  Who knew it was a foreshadow of things to come?  Crikey!

moda0306 wrote: What is the penalty for disability fraud against the government?

You get diagnosed with GDFD (government disability fraud disorder) and the payments double.

I wonder if welfare reform, where they set a limit on how long you can get benefits, has something to do with this. Once you get on disability you are set for life so it's probably a much better deal.

moda0306 wrote: What is the penalty for disability fraud against the government?

Looks like basically nothing as long as you're not organizing it on a widespread scale.

Wikipedia wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disabilit ... s_of_fraud

The United States Social Security Administration accepts reports from the public for the following types of fraud:

* Applicants who state they are not married when they are. Those receiving Supplemental Security Income (SSI) can have their benefits reduced by their spouse's income and assets, so some applicants may wish to hide the existence, income, or assets or their spouse.
* Claims of blindness. In particular, the Social Security Administration is concerned about those who declare they are blind and unable to drive, but are later found to be in possession of a driver's license and are observed (legally) operating a motor vehicle.
* Unreported income. Some types of income that often go unreported are from renting out a portion of one's home, or from an insurance policy.
* Employment changes, in a person who was not working at the time they applied for and started to receive benefits, but has since returned to work.
* A person who is living in an institution, such as a long-term care facility or a prison
* A person who is the legal custodian (representative payee) of a disabled person's money spending it on some expense other than that of the disabled person
* A person who cashes the checks of a deceased person
The Social Security Administration does not accept reports from callers who think that a person receiving benefits does not "appear" disabled.