Gyroscopic Investing

"“reversing a downward spiral depends on accepting a new approach.”?

And how likely is that??  Like an alcoholic, I suspect we will have to (painfully) "hit bottom" before things change direction.

Benko wrote: "“reversing a downward spiral depends on accepting a new approach.”?

And how likely is that??  Like an alcoholic, I suspect we will have to (painfully) "hit bottom" before things change direction.

Agree and how fun that will be for those of us being dragged down with the ship.

How depressing, Ron Paul was one of the few Republicans I respected.

Can somebody please explain the logic behind the Libertarian view on open borders, to me?  I understand the whole, "Fences can be used to keep people in, as well as out" argument. 

But if we open our borders, we're going to have 1/2 the world's population coming here.

Coffee wrote: Can somebody please explain the logic behind the Libertarian view on open borders, to me?  I understand the whole, "Fences can be used to keep people in, as well as out" argument. 

But if we open our borders, we're going to have 1/2 the world's population coming here.

Simonjester wrote: i doubt i can do it justice since i don't entirely agree with or understand it, and i find some parts a bit overly optimistic about the ability to fix bureaucracy and human nature,
but i think the general idea is
- fix the legal immigration system so that the people we want (and need) to come here can do so legally with out a lot of hassle or expense for both temporary and permanent immigration, cut out the incentives for people to come here illegally such as benefits, welfare, anchor children and easy to find under the table work, legalese drugs to kill the cross-border drug traffic.... and the remaining small amount of illegal cross border activity becomes manageable without needing fences or militarizing the border...

as far as i know most libertarians aren't promoting an "open border free for all" but i could be wrong about that.

I think that the recipe is to dismantle the welfare state and then you can let everyone in and the people who can't make it will starve to death or go back where they came from.

My understanding (based on accounts from her lovers) is that Ayn Rand found this description of a libertarian paradise to be quite the aphrodisiac.  If delivered in a Russian accent it could actually induce a rapturous seizure.

Coffee wrote: Can somebody please explain the logic behind the Libertarian view on open borders, to me?  I understand the whole, "Fences can be used to keep people in, as well as out" argument. 

But if we open our borders, we're going to have 1/2 the world's population coming here.

That sounds great! If half the world's population comes here and becomes productive members of society, the US will flourish ASSUMING we went full libertarian government:

1) No federal welfare for anyone, US citizens or immigrants, including no Medicaid
2) No minimum wage
3) No EMTALA

Mexicans can come up and legally be my gardener for 50 cents an hour. But... if the housing market is as it is currently, they can't afford to live for 50 cents an hour and will drive the wage up. Perhaps to $3 per hour, which is lower than minimum wage, but if the Mexican can afford to live and is willfully free and happy doing so, then I'm better off than paying a US Citizen $10 per hours to mow my grass.

I'm free to spend the different elsewhere on something that I want. And it's possible some people don't pay people at all to do landscaping because the minimum wage makes it too expensive relative to their time. But if they can legally get someone to do it for $3, they may decide to start outsourcing that job and then work more hours at work... increasing productivity of society as a whole.

If I was a landscaper then I'm screwed because now someone else can do my job for a lot cheaper. I'll be forced to go back to school and learn computers or some other trade, which grows the economy. If I don't, I'll starve and die in the street because there's no federal welfare so my incentive is strong to change. If I can't change, local government/charities may offer me some minor welfare but only if they've personally looked at my individual case and decided I was worthy. Since I can't easily log into the internet and anonymously and shamelessly request my free government handout, I may be more incented to go back to school and get a new trade.

If I was a store owner then I now have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of new customers to serve. I'm doing great!

The problem is opening up the borders but keeping everything else the same would be disastrous. US Citizens would bitch and moan about "they took err jerbs" and simply collect free welfare for the rest of their lives.

The minimum wage would force Mexican laborers to work under the table and thus skirt paying taxes.

If we made it one large libertarian society with minimal government interference, fully opening up the borders would work great. Think about how undeveloped most of the country is. If all the new immigrants productively worked to build roads on that land, paid for by developers who are investing in housing, that the immigrants live in, paying out of their construction wages... and new stores and shops open up to service these new communities... the country's GDP would double in a few years.

That ONLY works if we cut the other government crap too.

The common liberal fascist response to my above argument is that "it's a race to the bottom. Sure Mexicans will come over and push down wages of unskilled labor, but we'll also get Indians coming over to take your skilled IT jobs too, pushing those wages down."

My response is that nominal value of dollars is irrelevant. If an Indian comes by and can do my job cheaper and I'm forced to accept a reduced wage to be competitive, then in a free market, the real value of my wages goes up. If both skilled and unskilled labor can occur more cheaply due to new immigrants, then services and products can be produced more cheaply, and I can buy more of them, even with a lower paycheck.

Or maybe it will force me to become smarter and more efficient in my workflow to compete with my new Indian counterparts.

If anyone doesn't believe that this will work, there's a small country that actually existed at one point in history that proves this will work. That country didn't have federal government handouts in the form of welfare, foodstamps, or Medicaid. They did allow immigrants into their borders freely, provided they weren't carrying diseases.

Those immigrants arrived with a strong work ethic and built strong local economies and communities with their sweat equity and effort. Over time, they saved up and increased the quality of their lives for their children, who then did the same for their children's children.

Unfortunately at some point in time, there was a disconnect between how their children's children's children got to be in such a good position. They forgot about he hard work ethic of their immigrant ancestors, and eventually began voting to keep out new immigrants that threatened their reduced work ethics. They also began voting for privileges that they "deserved" from the government.

And that was the point where people completely forgot how the country was founded and it became widespread truth that immigration is bad and threatens the economy. Anyone who mentioned opening up the borders again was declared a heretic and a crazy person.

I'll leave the reader to perform independent research and identify which country I am referring to.

TripleB, it seems like a lot of your recent posts have come from a dark place in your mind, and I think I recognize that place, because I've been there too. If I'm right, you're at the stage of your libertarian journey where you've learned all about history and economics, and when you gaze at the world around you it appears that everything sucks and that yelling "FREEDOM!" into the face of the oncoming tidal wave of oppression is a futile gesture.

What helped me overcome this darkness was realizing the contradiction between the dim view of my fellow citizens--who I saw as  voting themselves government benefits and allowing their freedom to wane--and the central theme of libertarianism that the individual is a strong, empowered entity capable of big things if left unchained. I started recognizing the potential for freedom embedded in the human breast that grows in strength with every diminution of the many chains that have a non-government origin, including depression, debt, poor health, lack of savings, and excessive consumption. As these chains fall from people's lives, their desire for freedom grows, and their focus turns to the chains that they can't unlock for themselves: those fastened upon their legs by government. Focus on that.  Imagine the potential energy of freedom rather than the seeming lack of kinetic energy. Don't give up! It gets better!

Pointedstick wrote: TripleB, it seems like a lot of your recent posts have come from a dark place in your mind, and I think I recognize that place, because I've been there too. If I'm right, you're at the stage of your libertarian journey where you've learned all about history and economics, and when you gaze at the world around you it appears that everything sucks and that yelling "FREEDOM!" into the face of the oncoming tidal wave of oppression is a futile gesture.

What helped me overcome this darkness was realizing the contradiction between the dim view of my fellow citizens--who I saw as  voting themselves government benefits and allowing their freedom to wane--and the central theme of libertarianism that the individual is a strong, empowered entity capable of big things if left unchained. I started recognizing the potential for freedom embedded in the human breast that grows in strength with every diminution of the many chains that have a non-government origin, including depression, debt, poor health, lack of savings, and excessive consumption. As these chains fall from people's lives, their desire for freedom grows, and their focus turns to the chains that they can't unlock for themselves: those fastened upon their legs by government. Focus on that.  Imagine the potential energy of freedom rather than the seeming lack of kinetic energy. Don't give up! It gets better!

If you were to plot freedom on the Y-axis and time on the X-axis it would look like an exponential downward curve. 30 years ago one could argue the same thing "it could get better!" 20 years ago the same... 10 years ago too... and 10 years from now we'll look back and think "wow, I used to think I had low freedoms 10 years ago, look at what we have now. If only we could go back to 10 years ago."

TripleB wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: TripleB, it seems like a lot of your recent posts have come from a dark place in your mind, and I think I recognize that place, because I've been there too. If I'm right, you're at the stage of your libertarian journey where you've learned all about history and economics, and when you gaze at the world around you it appears that everything sucks and that yelling "FREEDOM!" into the face of the oncoming tidal wave of oppression is a futile gesture.

What helped me overcome this darkness was realizing the contradiction between the dim view of my fellow citizens--who I saw as  voting themselves government benefits and allowing their freedom to wane--and the central theme of libertarianism that the individual is a strong, empowered entity capable of big things if left unchained. I started recognizing the potential for freedom embedded in the human breast that grows in strength with every diminution of the many chains that have a non-government origin, including depression, debt, poor health, lack of savings, and excessive consumption. As these chains fall from people's lives, their desire for freedom grows, and their focus turns to the chains that they can't unlock for themselves: those fastened upon their legs by government. Focus on that.  Imagine the potential energy of freedom rather than the seeming lack of kinetic energy. Don't give up! It gets better!

If you were to plot freedom on the Y-axis and time on the X-axis it would look like an exponential downward curve. 30 years ago one could argue the same thing "it could get better!" 20 years ago the same... 10 years ago too... and 10 years from now we'll look back and think "wow, I used to think I had low freedoms 10 years ago, look at what we have now. If only we could go back to 10 years ago."

Unlike many people and places on the internet that discuss gold a lot, I think that the bunch here is pretty optimistic overall, even though they tend to be very realistic about some of the tendencies in human nature.

More than anything, I have learned that there is always a very sound rationale for being completely nihilistic about everything, and there is also a very sound rationale for being tremendously optimistic about everything, and this all happens within more or less the same reality-space.

I believe that ultimately you create your own mental space to inhabit, and part of the freedom-loving person's approach to life is the hope that he will meet other people who will respect the differences between their realities, while appreciating the things that they see in the same ways.

I have lived in a mental space that was all TEOTWAWKI all the time, and I have lived in the mental space that was all vanilla-flavored hope all of the time, and neither felt quite right to me.

Our perceptions of reality are a bit like a radio.  There are many different stations that can be tuned in, we just have to remember how to operate the tuning knob.

Pointedstick wrote: TripleB, it seems like a lot of your recent posts have come from a dark place in your mind, and I think I recognize that place, because I've been there too. If I'm right, you're at the stage of your libertarian journey where you've learned all about history and economics, and when you gaze at the world around you it appears that everything sucks and that yelling "FREEDOM!" into the face of the oncoming tidal wave of oppression is a futile gesture.

What helped me overcome this darkness was realizing the contradiction between the dim view of my fellow citizens--who I saw as  voting themselves government benefits and allowing their freedom to wane--and the central theme of libertarianism that the individual is a strong, empowered entity capable of big things if left unchained. I started recognizing the potential for freedom embedded in the human breast that grows in strength with every diminution of the many chains that have a non-government origin, including depression, debt, poor health, lack of savings, and excessive consumption. As these chains fall from people's lives, their desire for freedom grows, and their focus turns to the chains that they can't unlock for themselves: those fastened upon their legs by government. Focus on that.  Imagine the potential energy of freedom rather than the seeming lack of kinetic energy. Don't give up! It gets better!

Rather than going straight into ad hominem, you might take the time to explain what it is about his post that leads you to believe it comes from a "dark place" in his mind.  Or you could actually rebut his point.  Perish the thought, I know.  It is the internet after all.

Personally I'd love to see why the Libertarian idea of immigration as a free market economic issue as opposed to a social issue comes from a "dark place."  I don't personally subscribe to the idea because I think it requires a lot of "pie in the sky" preconditions to work.  Like a government relinquishing control of...anything.

RuralEngineer wrote: Rather than going straight into ad hominem, you might take the time to explain what it is about his post that leads you to believe it comes from a "dark place" in his mind.  Or you could actually rebut his point.  Perish the thought, I know.  It is the internet after all.

Personally I'd love to see why the Libertarian idea of immigration as a free market economic issue as opposed to a social issue comes from a "dark place."  I don't personally subscribe to the idea because I think it requires a lot of "pie in the sky" preconditions to work.  Like a government relinquishing control of...anything.

I actually didn't mean that as an attack at all, and I'm sorry if I wasn't very clear. The "dark place" wasn't referring to any of TripleB's specific policy prescriptions, all of which I actually agree with. But the tone of his last few posts have been despondent and bitter, and I remember when I was a despondent bitter libertarian, so I was just trying to offer a bit of encouragement. As usual, MT said it much more artfully.

Pointedstick wrote: As usual, MT said it much more artfully.

For whatever reason I always imagine MT to look like this, just a wise old sage.



P.S. That bag he is holding either is full of knowledge, or gold coins.

Pointedstick wrote: TripleB, it seems like a lot of your recent posts have come from a dark place in your mind, and I think I recognize that place, because I've been there too. If I'm right, you're at the stage of your libertarian journey where you've learned all about history and economics, and when you gaze at the world around you it appears that everything sucks and that yelling "FREEDOM!" into the face of the oncoming tidal wave of oppression is a futile gesture.

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Pointedstick wrote: I actually didn't mean that as an attack at all, and I'm sorry if I wasn't very clear. The "dark place" wasn't referring to any of TripleB's specific policy prescriptions, all of which I actually agree with. But the tone of his last few posts have been despondent and bitter, and I remember when I was a despondent bitter libertarian, so I was just trying to offer a bit of encouragement. As usual, MT said it much more artfully.

Were you ever a despondent, bitter Communist?

1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: As usual, MT said it much more artfully.

For whatever reason I always imagine MT to look like this, just a wise old sage.

P.S. That bag he is holding either is full of knowledge, or gold coins.

In addition to dispensing wisdom, I also fight evil.

Here is me in a recent battle with the sinister Darth Maul.



If you must know, in the bag I carry equal portions of knowledge, gold coins, and whupass.

MediumTex wrote:

1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote:

Pointedstick wrote: As usual, MT said it much more artfully.

For whatever reason I always imagine MT to look like this, just a wise old sage.

P.S. That bag he is holding either is full of knowledge, or gold coins.

In addition to dispensing wisdom, I also fight evil.

Here is me in a recent battle with the sinister Darth Maul.

If you must know, in the bag I carry equal portions of knowledge, gold coins, and whupass.

Quite hilarious. Although is Darth Maul's lightsaber crooked in the middle? Both of the blades aren't coming out at a 180 degree angle to each other. If the picture you posed for a folded angle portion in the middle to look like the blade is crooked coming from Maulie?\

Also there is a big part of me that really wants to take my gold coins and put them in a leather/burlap sack like the picture I uploaded that I thought looked like MT. It'd be so cool to actually pay for things with them someday or have some silver eagles in there as well. 22k gold of course to not scratch up the coins themselves

On a random note, I think the Austrian Philharmonic is my favorite gold coin for being the most beautiful in my eyes. Slightly beating out the Canadian Maple for Beauty, sorry Gosso.

1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote: Quite hilarious. Although is Darth Maul's lightsaber crooked in the middle? Both of the blades aren't coming out at a 180 degree angle to each other. If the picture you posed for a folded angle portion in the middle to look like the blade is crooked coming from Maulie?\

Darth Maul's light saber is as straight as six o'clock.  What you are seeing is a weird light bending trick he sometimes uses to gain an advantage.

It never works on me, of course.  I see right through all of his evil tricks.

MediumTex wrote:

1NV35T0R (Greg) wrote: Quite hilarious. Although is Darth Maul's lightsaber crooked in the middle? Both of the blades aren't coming out at a 180 degree angle to each other. If the picture you posed for a folded angle portion in the middle to look like the blade is crooked coming from Maulie?\

Darth Maul's light saber is as straight as six o'clock.  What you are seeing is a weird light bending trick he sometimes uses to gain an advantage.

It never works on me, of course.  I see right through all of his evil tricks.

You really need a "like" button on this forum haha.