Dining out with a group: an ethics question

[dualstow]

I admit that I'm the type of person that gets riled up at perceived slights -- people barging in line or interrupting at outdoor food markets; telemarketers calling me about reducing my interest rates who, when I tell them I have no loans and would like to get off their call list, immediately disconnect without a word; etc. I usually get riled up silently. I'm not one to pick fights unless there is no other option, and as far as I can remember, there have always been other options. But because I get annoyed so easily, I often question my own judgment about what is fair. I have to remember to be assertive, to not be a pushover, while at the same time not come off as a jerk.

So, recently my wife and I met up with a friend of hers and her boyfriend. We made reservations at a nice restaurant and everyone showed up on time. After we received our appetizers and began to eat, the friend looked at her phone and then grabbed our waiter. "Can we move to a bigger table, because I think another person is going to join us." She didn't say anything to me or my wife about it. "I'll check."

The ladies went to the bathroom, leaving me and the boyfriend at the table. The waiter came over with an assistant manager and the latter's face was flushed. "I need to know if that fifth person is really joining you because we're giving you someone else's table." I was embarrassed and said that I didn't know, she'd have to talk it out with the boyfriend, news to me, etc. "She's definitely coming." So we moved. 5th person did show up.

Food was great, conversation was great. The bill comes. "Should we split this down the middle?", boyfriend says. As I pull out my credit card, the fifth person slides her card down the table toward me. Boyfriend says, "No." So, I send her card back to her. As I do this, I realize that I'm treating this stranger who showed up unannounced, or within 5 minutes of the announcement in the middle of a reserved meal.

But, whatever. I try to shrug it off. In both the culture of my wife's friend AND that of the 5th person, it's no big deal to ask anything of the waitstaff. The tables are usually round in those countries. The customer is king, even in a packed restaurant that will seemingly always have plenty of business. And, I wonder, maybe it's rude to request that we split things 40-60, as my wife and I are 2 people out of 5, and I barely know anyone else. I certainly didn't know the 5th person from Adam (er, from Eve). Then again, we're in the States. Does my culture count?

But, what exactly is the rule in my culture?

In the end, I just split it 50-50 with the boyfriend, and the 5th person muttered something about treating us to drinks at the restaurant's bar.

We had a few drinks, and an hour later I again reached for my card, almost as a pretense.  I told the bartender I was ready to settle up, and since apparently we weren't going to be treated, I paid our share. (I actually got a bill for much more than my and my wife's total of 3 drinks, but that's another story). A little late to renegotiate the dinner bill, eh?

Would it have been rude to ask for the 40-60 split? Does it depend on your age, wealth, and how well you know the people you're with? I had met the friend once before, and the other two people were new to both me and to my wife. Am I a curmudgeon? Am I out of touch with the way these things are handled nowadays?

[dualstow]

Do you really care if they would be offended? And why should they be? JMHO

I guess my problem is that I seem to care at the critical moment. ;-) I care a lot less during my morning of regret.
And, I agree with you about the closeness of the other party: with closer friends, it's really not an issue because we take turns treating and we don't stick each other with paying for a newcomer. Perhaps that's one reason why they're my close friends.

[dualstow]

P.S. This made me smile.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... urant-bill

[Pointedstick]

This is why I never go out for food with people other than my wife. If I absolutely need to, I eat a lot beforehand and don't order anything (sometimes I'll munch on a piece of the free bread). That way I don't have to feel guilty about not paying for anything!  ;D

[dualstow]

P.S. This made me smile.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ ... urant-bill

Is it just a coincidence that one of the commenters [verrochio] has the same avatar that you just changed to your picture here?  ;)

Good catch! I am not verrochio but having read that painting news item a few days ago I laughed out loud at his/her avatar and lifted it for my own. It's just perfect.

Pointed, I assume you're being facetious in your earlier post, but just in case you're not: be careful. If you do retire early, I see a lot of social dining out in your future!

[hoost]

I have been thinking a lot about how I would react in this situation, and I'm thinking if it were me I would just avoid dining out at nicer restaurants with this group of people in the future.  I'd probably stick to lower-end pay your own way/self-service type places, at least until I know them well enough and am comfortable enough with them to say something when they pull something like that.  Given that you enjoyed the conversation, I would assume you'd like to get together with them again, so maybe that's the best option.

[Pointedstick]

Actually, I'm quite serious. In the first place, my wife and I don't have the kind of friends who really go out to activities and dinner that much. Mostly we go to one party's house for a homecooked meal. We'r actually having friends over tonight for a nice fish meal. But once in a while when I have to go out for dinner with folks, I'll treat myself to an appetizer or a salad and ask for separate checks.

[dualstow]

That's a good alternative. Alas, my friends are terrible cooks. Maybe we should get take-in. There is a couple who's fair about everything but the huge amount of alcohol they consume. I try to steer them toward BYOBs.

hoost, the good news is that they're out-of-towners and my wife is not very emotionally close to the friend in question any more than geographically. So, we've got time to regroup and think about this. The missus is 100% on my side, by the way.

[MachineGhost]

In the end, I just split it 50-50 with the boyfriend, and the 5th person muttered something about treating us to drinks at the restaurant's bar.

We had a few drinks, and an hour later I again reached for my card, almost as a pretense.  I told the bartender I was ready to settle up, and since apparently we weren't going to be treated, I paid our share. (I actually got a bill for much more than my and my wife's total of 3 drinks, but that's another story). A little late to renegotiate the dinner bill, eh?

It sounds to me like the 5th wheel noticed the inequity and wanted to make it up by treating everyone to drinks at her expense.  In a culture where the man is dominant, even a pretense is enough to put off a woman submissive, especially one who had already been dominated by another man just previously.  Sorry to be harsh, but I think you only have yourself to blame.  If you don't want to pay next time in a similar situation, then inform the initiator of their obligation.

[MediumTex]

There's not much you could have done without creating a lot of awkwardness.

The person who should have taken a more active role was the person who invited the 5th person and the 5th person herself.

If I had been the 5th person I would have insisted on paying for at least my own meal.

[dualstow]

It sounds to me like the 5th wheel noticed the inequity and wanted to make it up by treating everyone to drinks at her expense.  In a culture where the man is dominant, even a pretense is enough to put off a woman submissive, especially one who had already been dominated by another man just previously.  Sorry to be harsh, but I think you only have yourself to blame.  If you don't want to pay next time in a similar situation, then inform the initiator of their obligation.

Don't worry- not too harsh. I didn't want to bog you down with even more detail, but I didn't pull out my credit card until the others had edged away from the bar, so I thought it was pretty safe. Everyone else had already paid whatever they paid.

I totally agree with you in that I have myself to blame. But MT is also right. Even if I had won in the financial & assertiveness categories, I would have felt like a jackass back at home. I guess I'll have to alternate being a pushover with being a jackass, with self-esteem calisthenics in between. After all, the people who put me in this position (or opportunity) did so without shame or guilt. I need to try that.

[Alanw]

We dine out often.  Many times with other couples or just a group of guys after a golf game.  It has now become common just to ask for seperate checks before we order.  That way everyone can order what they want to eat or drink without thinking they are getting short changed or taking advantage of someone.  It is always a relief when someone in your party says "Is seperate checks OK?".  When this is established up front, there are no questions.

[stone]

Will those "pingit" mobile payment systems make this kind of situation any simpler? Or is it purely a social interaction dilema unrelated to payment convenience?

[dualstow]

Choice 2: social interaction.

[Storm]

It's interesting because whenever dining with my wife's friends, there is always a fight over who gets the privilege of paying the check...  Literally, I've been asked by my wife to flag down the waiter away from the table and hand them my card so her friend doesn't ask for the check and pay for it first.

It is bizarre, to be honest, but I guess it comes from a culture of generosity.

[dualstow]

It's interesting because whenever dining with my wife's friends, there is always a fight over who gets the privilege of paying the check...  Literally, I've been asked by my wife to flag down the waiter away from the table and hand them my card so her friend doesn't ask for the check and pay for it first.

It is bizarre, to be honest, but I guess it comes from a culture of generosity.

I can't remember- is your wife Taiwanese? I have seen something close to a fist fight there over who gets to pay the bill. This is not to say that there's no generosity there. There is plenty, but this situation all about "face" ( ?? mianzi ). I was literally chased around several tables by my wife's dad when I tried to pay in a restaurant on the mainland. It was like a movie.

Of course, I do the same thing on a much milder scale with my close American friends. We take turns.