Gyroscopic Investing

Hi,

I am looking for suggestions of what bank to open an account in Canada for a US resident. Ideally, would like just to deposit minimum balance of say $1000.

Account will not be used much at present, so would like to avoid unneeded fees like inactivity.

I would like to have an ATM & credit card also.

Purpose is mainly for geographic diversification.

thanks.

From Wikipedia:
"The five largest banks in Canada are:
Royal Bank of Canada
Toronto Dominion Bank
Bank of Nova Scotia
Bank of Montreal
Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce"

I have used Bank of Montreal for years and am thinking about opening up another act at Royal Bank. May open associated safe deposit box for Maples. Also had some land there, and plan for some more.
Since I live within driving distance of Canada, I too like having this geographic diversification. I think that HB is proud of me.

I have an account at TD -- I guess that's Toronto Dominion? -- because I want to continue to use the penny arcade for free.
So, when I have enough coins to justify ex-US diversification, I'm going with TD north of the border.

A lot of the Canadian Banks have expanded into the US, so check if one of them have a local branch close by.  TD (and yes it's Toronto Dominion) has likely expanded the most.

But won't FATCA prevent US residents from opening or having foreign bank accounts.  From my understanding Canadian Banks will not open accounts for US residents (or possibly even Canadian residents with US citizenship) because of the headache and costs of FATCA.  Also, I had a hell of a time opening a US bank account a few years ago (I had to have my SSN and proof of residence...which is difficult if you have no credit history in the US and no US bank account).  I had to go to three or four banks before I found one that knew what to do.

checking around, it seems that Canadian banks require either Canadian citizenship and/or residency to establish an account.

Any work-arounds?

murphy_p_t wrote: checking around, it seems that Canadian banks require either Canadian citizenship and/or residency to establish an account.

Any work-arounds?

Geographic diversification is becoming increasingly difficult with banking. Even the very wealthy are routinely being turned away by foreign banks and the nonwealthy are just being laughed at.

murphy_p_t wrote: checking around, it seems that Canadian banks require either Canadian citizenship and/or residency to establish an account.

Any work-arounds?

Will call my bank and ask about this. Based on what you and others have said, I suspect that I was grandfathered in 2004 and could no longer open a new act.

John T Reed has several articles on how to open bank accounts in overseas banks including Canada.  Here's his suggestion for a canadian account. 

http://www.johntreed.com/Canadian-bank- ... nt-opening

I'd ignore his ideas on how to protect yourself from the coming fiscal crisis by putting all your money in foreign currency though.

had a very unhappy experience in attempting to establish an account across the border...ultimately, I was not successful.

I was thoroughly cross-examined why I wanted to open a savings account & challenged repeatedly about "geographic diversification" making no sense, source of funds, what I do for a living...

I was sent away as I didn't have something showing my SSN...like my original SS card...which was alleged to be needed.

I nearly forgot to mention the prima-dona attitude of the bank manager...as they didn't was me to lodge money in their bank...and in needing to make a appointment just to discuss the matter.

This was at one of the major banks...just across the international border

Given the extremely onerous requirements laid out by FACTA I think people are going to find it increasingly difficult to bank outside the United States. I wish I had a constructive suggestion. But I really don't. What we are seeing are de facto restrictions on capital movement and a form of soft (for now) financial repression.

Increasingly dealing with foreign banks is becoming more of a hassle. I recommend just not working with any of them if you can avoid it. If you want to do some geographic diversification something like Perth Mint may be a better option. They are a not a financial institution the same way as a bank is and don't have any problem working with foreigners. The only downside is for smaller accounts (less than $50,000USD) they want you to work with a certificate provider in the US. If you are over that amount however you can work directly with them to have gold storage.

The other problem with Canada is the government will basically do whatever the US tells them to do. Yeah they don't like to hear that, but it's just the reality of the situation. So dealing with a border bank in Canada may or may not be much benefit. It's probably better than keeping it all in a US bank, but if your'e going to go through the trouble I'd recommend looking at all the options.

What about depositing funds at a foreign bank in a major U.S city like New York? Is this another possibility?

Here is a link:

http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/nycdata/intl ... ountry.htm

And a list of foreign banks in NYC:
                                                     Codes    Assets in Millions
Argentina
Banco De La Nacion Argentina G,H,X 399
Australia
Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Ltd H-X 10,575
Commonwealth Bank of Australia H-X 8,849
Macquarie Bank - -
National Australia Bank Ltd H-X 29,007
Westpac Banking Corporation H-X 23,218
Austria
Erste Group Bank AG H-X 4,611
Raiffeisen Zentralbank - 0
Azerbaijan
International Bank of Azerbaijan - 0
Bahrein
Arab Banking Corporation H-X 419
Gulf International Bank H-X 77
Trans-Arabian Investment Bank NY - 0
Belgum
Antwerpse Diamant Bank - 0
Euroclear - 0
Fortis Bank H-X 693
KBC Bank G,H,X 11,738
Brazil
Banco Bradesco SA H-X 6,847
Banco Do Brasil SA - 13,070
Banco Do Estado Rio Grande Do Sul H 16
Banco Itau-BBA SA - 0
Itau Unibanco SA H-X 8,034
Unibanco-Uniao De Bancos Brasi - 0
Canada
Bank of Montreal G-X 4
Bank of Nova Scotia G 87,261
Canadian Imperial Bank A,G,H,X 21,037
National Bank of Canada H-X 15,027
Royal Bank of Canada H 43,185
Royal Bank of Canada H-X 0
Royal Bank of Canada H-X 2,033
Totonto-Dominion Bank H-X 42,465
Chile
Banco Del Estado De Chile H-X 5,231
Corpbanca H-X 494
China
Agricultural Bank of China - 0
Bank of China Ltd H 0
Bank of China Ltd H-X 8,419
Bank of Communications H-X 1,249
China Construction Bank Corporation H 0
China Construction Bank Corporation H-X 562
China Merchants Bank H 260
China Merchants Bank H 0
Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Limited H-X 1,038
Colombia
Banco De Bogota SA A,G,H,X 447
Dominican Republic
Grupo Popular SA H-X 414
Egypt
National Bank of Egypt H-X 726
Finland
Nordea Bank Finland PLC H-X 26,628
France
Banque Transatlantique - 0
BNP Paribas G-X 83,829
BNP Paribas - 0
Credit Agricole G,H,X 73,119
Credit Industriel et Commercial H-X 13,516
Dexia Credit Local H 38,979
Natixis H 0
Natixis - 0
Natixis G,H,X 31,345
Societe Generale G,H,X 76,836
Germany
Bayerische Landesbank H-X 14,909
Commerzbank AG G,H,X 13,888
Dekabank Deutsche Girozentrale - 0
Deutsche Bank H 0
Deutsche Bank H-X 126,565
Deutsche Bank H-X 43,206
Deutsche Bank H 147
Deutsche Genossenschafts Hypot - 0
DVB BANK AG - 0
DZ Bank AG Deutsche Zentral G-X 7,663
Eurohypo H 5,715
HSH Nordbank AG H-X 12,039
KFW Ipex Bank - 0
Kreditanstalt Fuer Wiederaufba - 0
Landesbank Baden- Wuerttemberg H-X 8,233
Landesbank Hessen-Thuringen Girozentrale H-X 12,582
Norddeutsche Landesbank Girozentrale H-X 5,432
Unicredit Bank AG G,H,X 7,643
Westdeutsche Immobilienbank - 0
WestLB AG G,H,X 20,189
Hong Kong
Bank of East Asia H 313
Bank of East Asia H 116
Bank of East Asia H 694
CITIC Ka Wah Bank Limited H-X 99
Hongkong & Shanghai BKG Corp. - 0
Shanghai Commercial Bank Limited L 547
India
Bank of Baroda G,H 4,323
Bank of India H 3,346
ICICI Bank Limited H 702
State Bank of India G,H 4,911
Indonesia
Perusahaan Perseroan PT Bank Rakyat Indonesia H-X 212
PT. Bank Negara Indonesia TBK A-H-X 200
Ireland
Allied Irish Banks PLC G,H 1,120
Anglo Irish BK Corp   - 0
Depfa Bank PLC H 2,236
Governor and the Company of the Bank of Ireland H 0
Israel
Bank Hapoalim G,H 0
Bank Hapoalim G,H,X 6,564
Bank Hapoalim H-X 667
Bank Leumi Le-Israel G 19
Bank Leumi Le-Israel X 5,397
Israel Discount Bank Ltd H-X 9,663
Italy
Banca Monte Dei Paschi Di Siena S.P.A. H-X 591
Cassa di Risparmio Di Firenze - 0
Intesa Sanpaolo S.P.A. H-X 13,746
Unicredit S.P.A. G,H,X 1,516
Japan
Aozora Bank - 0
Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi G-X 95,711
Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi X 1,133
Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi - 456
Bank of Yokohama - 0
Chiba Bank Ltd H-X 871
Chugoku Bank - 0
Chuo Mitsui Tr & Bkg Co - 0
Gunma Bank Ltd H-X 823
Hokuriku Bank - 0
Yio Bank - 0
Mitsubishi UFJ Trust and Banking Corporation G,H,X 15,685
Mitsubishi UFJ Trust and Banking Corporation H-X 253
Mizuho Corporate Bank Ltd. H-X 3,545
Mizuho Corporate Bank Ltd. H 0
Mizuho Corporate Bank Ltd. G,H,X 69,722
Mizuho Trust and Banking Co, Ltd H-X 1,085
Norinchukin Bank H-X 91,475
Ogaki Kyoritsu Bank - 0
San-in-Godo Bank - 0
Shinkin Central Bank - 0
Shizuoka Bank Ltd X 1,596
Shoko Chukin Bank H-X 374
Sumimoto Mitsui Banking Corporation G-X 69,659
Sumimoto Trust & Banking Co, Ltd G,H,X 21,230
Jordan
Arab Bank PLC H 428
Korea
Export-Import Bank of Korea - 0
Hana Bank A,G,X 600
Industrial Bank of Korea H-X 292
Kookmin Bank H-X 637
Korea Development Bank H-X 1,747
Korea Exchange Bank - 0
Shinhan Bank H 978
Shinhan Bank H-X 524
Woori Bank H 955
Woori Bank A,G,H-X 449
Kuweit
National Bank of Kuwait H-X 1,041
Luxembourg
Clearstream Iternational SA - 0
Malaysia
Malayan Banking Berhad H-X 1,113
Netherlands
ABN Amro Bank - 0
Cooperative Centrale Raiffeisen Boerenleenbank B.A. H-X 80,856
ING Bank - 0
Nigeria
United Bank for Africa PLC H-X 227
Norway
DNB Nor Bank ASA H 25,532
Nordea Bank Norge ASA H-X 13
Pakistan
Habib Bank Ltd G,H,X 111
National Bank of Pakistan G,H,X 149
United Bank Ltd G,H,X 49
Panama
Banco Latinoamericano De Exportaciones SA H-X 871
Philippines
Metropolitan Bank and Trust Company H-X 37
Philippine National Bank G 23
Portugal
Banco Espirito Santo SA H 110
Banco Espirito Santo SA H-X 698
Caixa Geral De Depositos H-X 324
Quatar
Doha Bank H-X 24
Singapore
Oversea-Chinese Banking Corporation Limited A-H-X 538
United Overseas Bank Limited G,H-X 4,093
South Africa
Standard Bank of South Africa - 0
Spain
Banco Bilbao Vizkaya Argentaria SA H-X 3,275
Banco Espanol De Credito SA H-X 1,194
Banco Santander SA G-X 11,496
Sweden
Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken AB H 0
Skandinaviska Enskilda Banken AB H 13,303
Svenska Handelsbanken AB H-X 37,297
Swedbank AB H-X 12,760
Switzerland
Credit Suisse G-X 92,247
UBS AG L 0
UBS AG G-X 0
UBS AG - 0
UBS AG G-X 28,607
UBS AG L 0
Taiwan
Bank of Taiwan X 962
Chang Hwa Commercial Bank Ltd H-X 487
Chinatrust Commercial Bank Ltd H-X 500
First Commercial Bank Co, Ltd X 631
Hua Nan Commercial Bank Ltd X 230
Mega International Commercial Bank Co, Ltd G,H,X 5,115
Thailand
Bangkok Bank Public Company Limited G-L,X 427
Turkey
T.C.Ziraat Bankasi AS H-X 537
Turkiye Vakiflar Bankasi H-X 727
Ukraine
Joint Stock Co St Export Import - 0
United Arab Emirates
Mashreqbank PSC H-X 534
United Kingdom
Bank of Scotland PLC H 3,084
Bank of Scotland PLC H 0
Barclays Bank PLC G,H,X 71,344
Barclays Bank PLC H 0
Gulf International Bank Limited H-X 1
Lloyds TSB Bank PLC G-X 23,615
Royal Bank of Scotland PLC G-X 71,401
Standard Chartered Bank G-X 37,611
Standard Chartered Bank X 119
Uruguay
Banco De La Republica Oriental Del Uruguay H-X 2,363
Venezuela
Banco Industrial De Venezuela CA G,H,X 375
Mercantil CA - 0

1 Codes:
     A - Branch is considered to be an agency under state law
     G - Office is grandfathered under the international banking act (IBA)
     H - The location of the U.S. office is in the home state of the foreign parent
     L - Limited Branch
     X - The U.S. Office has established an international banking facility (IBF)

The Federal Reserve Board, Structure and Share Data for U.S. Offices of Foreign Banks - September 2011 Report
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/iba/default.htm

Any assets held in dollars, even in a foreign bank, are held in the US.

What about safe deposit boxes in Canada?  Same problem?

Any bank in the US is an American Bank fully subject to US law. Safe deposit boxes in a foreign bank might be a possibility, but only if one is not required to open an account. Most banks require you to have an account with them. There are however private high security storage companies that rent safe deposit boxes. I am pretty sure that they would be much easier.

murphy_p_t wrote: had a very unhappy experience in attempting to establish an account across the border...ultimately, I was not successful.

I was thoroughly cross-examined why I wanted to open a savings account & challenged repeatedly about "geographic diversification" making no sense, source of funds, what I do for a living...

I was sent away as I didn't have something showing my SSN...like my original SS card...which was alleged to be needed.

I nearly forgot to mention the prima-dona attitude of the bank manager...as they didn't was me to lodge money in their bank...and in needing to make a appointment just to discuss the matter.

This was at one of the major banks...just across the international border

Sounds similar to my experience when I opened a US checking account (even though I had a work visa!).  Apparently there was a NAFTA form I had to fill out, and only a few bank managers knew about it (at least in the area I was in).  

Have a look at this discussion forum:

Doug wrote:I work with a Canadian financial institution and we have opened quite a few accounts for non-residents. Typically, if they aren't Canadian citizens/permanent residents (similar to U.S. green card holders), they do have some sort of temporary residency/work permit/Citizenship & Immigration permit of some kind. That being said, I know that it can be done but would need your two pieces of ID, one with a photo and preferrably a passport to a driver's license, a second could be a major credit card and, as a non-resident, you would be required to produce your Social Security Number card and fill out a W9 form that the Canadian financial institution would keep on file and share with the U.S. IRS.

As for needing a SIN to open a Canadian bank account, while the SIN can be used as either a type "A" or "B" form of ID and is a CRA requirement when you have an interest-bearing deposit account, it is not actually a requirement, even for Canadian citizens/permanent residents. Even in the case of an interest-bearing deposit account or GIC, a SIN can still be declined; however, financial institutions are required to attempt to obtain the SIN annually (usually through a mass-mail campaign) advising that the person may be subject to a CRA fine/levy for not disclosing one's SIN.
Hope that helps,
Doug

"Doug" seems to think it's possible.  It might also help to apply for an Individual Tax Number (ITN), (link).  But might not be necessary if you fill out the W9.

Also CAD savings accounts are paying around 1.2-1.5%, which I believe is higher than the US.

The downside to the private security vaults is that they aren't regulated like banks. Regulation is a double edged sword. It's bad because the government now has greater access to your stuff. It's good because you know your stuff is protected from corruption and theft to a moderate degree.

There's a private vault company in Las Vegas that was robbed within the last year. I've never heard of banks safe deposit boxes getting robbed because it's hard to do. The private companies have security that is more uncertain and thus risky.

Ad Orientem wrote: Safe deposit boxes in a foreign bank might be a possibility, but only if one is not required to open an account. Most banks require you to have an account with them. There are however private high security storage companies that rent safe deposit boxes. I am pretty sure that they would be much easier.

Why not have a safe deposit box at a bank that you have an account?

Ad Orientem wrote: Given the extremely onerous requirements laid out by FACTA I think people are going to find it increasingly difficult to bank outside the United States.

Just talked to a financial planner at Bank of Montreal, and she seemed surprised that I even asked the question. Said that a US citizen could open an act. Just need 2 forms of ID.

BearBones wrote:

Ad Orientem wrote: Given the extremely onerous requirements laid out by FACTA I think people are going to find it increasingly difficult to bank outside the United States.

Just talked to a financial planner at Bank of Montreal, and she seemed surprised that I even asked the question. Said that a US citizen could open an act. Just need 2 forms of ID.

I find that remarkable. If that is indeed accurate I would seriously consider it. Although Craig makes a good point that Canada lives under the shadow of the US and I am not sure if you can count on a Canadian bank to protect your money from the long reach of the US Government.