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Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:39 am
by Gosso
I came across an interesting passage in a blog post from a Professor of English and a fan of C.S. Lewis (LINK):
Lewis and Tolkien were finding too little of what they liked in stories because they preferred the traditional stories of their childhood and youth—myth, legend, epic, fantasy, and fairy tales. But they lived at the height of literary Modernism, an era when “difficult”? writing was prized over accessible writing, when it was thought that literature should reflect the angst of contemporary times and be full of stylistic novelties. Ironically, these two literary outsiders continue to exert a tremendous influence on our culture while the “mainstream”? novelists they disliked are not widely read outside of academic circles.
I highly respect C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, and their incredible ability to create masterful works of myth and fiction (they are also responsible for my early interest in Christianity).  And I find it interesting that they had a general dislike for overly complicated writing styles.

This also coincides with my review of Joseph Campbell's critics (mostly academics), who claim that he doesn't fully understand the myths and that he is simply picking out the parts that suit his preconceived theories (although I'll admit Campbell may be doing this in some areas).  But Campbell even admitted that he is a generalist rather than a specialist, and he was well aware that the word "generalist" is a dirty word among academics.

In addition I tried to read The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley, but could barely get through ten pages of it...his writing style felt unnecessarily complicated, which made it very unpleasant to read.

So the question is, why do these academics and authors feel the need to jump on their high horse and show off?  Is it purely an ego thing, or is it that they feel it makes their "art" or area of study better?  Or am I just too dumb? (I admit that I'm more of a numbers guy)

This also applies to other fields such as investing, economics, politics, nutrition/diet, etc.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:20 pm
by MediumTex
Some people who write in a style that is not accessible are simply poor communicators in general.

I have also found that some people make their living by taking the simple and making it seem complex, while others make their living by taking the complex and making it seem simple.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:14 pm
by Gosso
MediumTex wrote: Some people who write in a style that is not accessible are simply poor communicators in general.

I have also found that some people make their living by taking the simple and making it seem complex, while others make their living by taking the complex and making it seem simple.
I like simple.  But I normally have to sift through all the complex BS to find the simple truth.  I suppose without the complex then we wouldn't know what the simple was. 

The complex also helps us from being fooled by charlatans.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:10 pm
by l82start
MediumTex wrote: Some people who write in a style that is not accessible are simply poor communicators in general.

I have also found that some people make their living by taking the simple and making it seem complex, while others make their living by taking the complex and making it seem simple.
  i found making the simple and applicable into the complex and irrelevant, for the purpose of gaining tenure or justifying having it, seemed to be the prime motivator for university philosophy professors..  it kinda turned me off my plans of studying philosophy in an academic environment, i was suffering from the strange notion that philosophy was supposed to be of practical use in a persons life...  (i still suffer from that notion)

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:09 pm
by FarmerD
MediumTex wrote: Some people who write in a style that is not accessible are simply poor communicators in general.

I have also found that some people make their living by taking the simple and making it seem complex, while others make their living by taking the complex and making it seem simple.
Regarding making things complex:  
Perhaps they don't really have anything important to say or write about.  "Obscure language helps those who have little to say."  I think Schopenhauer wrote that.  That quote comes in handy for me when I have a discussion with some ivory tower twit who tries to impress me with his academic speak.  

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:10 am
by LonerMatt
I find it interesting that you're using Tolkein as an example of a 'straightforward' writer, especially juxtaposed with Huxley.

Taking their two seminal works: Lord of the Rings (and even The Hobbit to an extent) and Brave New World, there is stark difference between accessibility and straightforwardness of prose. I'd certainly struggle to see how anyone could call Tolkein anything but complex and, in many ways, inaccessible.

I also find it absurdly simplistic to claim that modernism was completely holding the writing world in thrall when LOTR was written, between 1937 and 1949 there was already massive backlash against modernism in the form of dozens of writers: Orwell and Hemmingway are two such examples, Scott-Fitzgerald is another. Not to mention the popularity of SF pre-dating much of Tolkein and Lewis' works (and let's face it, most SF at that time was incredibly accessible).

However: as someone who has worked in a literary critic arena for a little while: I feel your pain, academic writing seems to lack any sort of pace, purpose or consistent direction in many ways. Shame!

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:42 am
by Gosso
LonerMatt,

I appreciate your comments, especially from someone in the business.  You're right about Orwell and Scott-Fitzgerald, since I read these books in high School.  I'll admit that I haven't read a Brave New World, but I did look at the Amazon preview and the writing appears to be very accessible.  It's possible that The Doors of Perception was written for a different audience, or I just wasn't able to find its rhythm.

My literary experience is also quite limited, so it is possible my taste for 'interesting' writing will grow as I consume more books.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:28 pm
by LonerMatt
Gosso wrote: LonerMatt,

I appreciate your comments, especially from someone in the business.  You're right about Orwell and Scott-Fitzgerald, since I read these books in high School.  I'll admit that I haven't read a Brave New World, but I did look at the Amazon preview and the writing appears to be very accessible.  It's possible that The Doors of Perception was written for a different audience, or I just wasn't able to find its rhythm.

My literary experience is also quite limited, so it is possible my taste for 'interesting' writing will grow as I consume more books.
Well, Doors of Perception and Brave New World are pretty different: one's quite drugged out, the other is much more straight forward, but still with some odd turns of phrase.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:15 pm
by 6 Iron
LonerMatt wrote: I'd certainly struggle to see how anyone could call Tolkein anything but complex and, in many ways, inaccessible.
Compared to Jacques Derrida or Noam Chomsky, Tolkien reads like Dick, Jane and Sally. I don't find him inaccessible, save for The Silmarillion.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:44 pm
by One day at a time
Gosso,

I remember you making some posts in the past describing your Christian faith.  That's interesting you are reading Joseph Campbell as well.  How are you rectifying those two perspectives?

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:30 am
by Lone Wolf
Here's a side of Tolkien's writing style you don't normally see: a sharp, angry, and very classy letter written in reply to a German publishing house after they demanded to know whether he was "of Aryan descent".
Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

remain yours faithfully,

J. R. R. Tolkien
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/i- ... ifted.html

Now that's style.  Far superior to a Lone Wolf-style reply along the lines of "You can goose-step straight to hell you Nazi stooge!"

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:37 am
by Gosso
Lone Wolf,

That is a great letter.  Maybe it's not the fancy words that bother me, but rather the condescending tone that some authors can take.  Tolkien just draws me in.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:07 pm
by LonerMatt
6 Iron wrote:
LonerMatt wrote: I'd certainly struggle to see how anyone could call Tolkein anything but complex and, in many ways, inaccessible.
Compared to Jacques Derrida or Noam Chomsky, Tolkien reads like Dick, Jane and Sally. I don't find him inaccessible, save for The Silmarillion.
Derrida, sure, Chomsky? I don't find Chomsky too difficult. But non-fiction and fiction? So hard to make meaningful comparisons. Although Limited inc. ABC is one of the most worthwhile reads I've ever come across!

In any case, my original point wasn't that Tolkein is the pinnacle of inaccessibility, but that, for his time, Tolkein was definitely writing in a way that was old fashioned and, I think irrefutably, is a highly romantic and dramatic style, and in many ways the books he wrote (especially LOTR and the Simarillion) are dense to the point of being trying.

LOTR is no Finnigan's Wake, but it's no Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, either ;).

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:23 pm
by MediumTex
One day at a time wrote: Gosso,

I remember you making some posts in the past describing your Christian faith.  That's interesting you are reading Joseph Campbell as well.  How are you rectifying those two perspectives?
I will speak for myself here, but I think that Joseph Campbell sought to extract the truth that runs through all of human mythology, while Christianity as it is practiced today is simply one manifestation of these human truths told in the form of a narrative that makes sense to many people today.

It's difficult, if not impossible, to be objective about one's own beliefs, but for me I can easily see the value and meaning that a belief system can provide to one's life, while understanding some of the irrational aspects that may be embedded in that belief system.

To me, it may not be wise to approach irrationality the way an exterminator approaches a pest.  It seems to me that the finest minds in all of history were ultimately the product of a mixture of rationality and irrationality.  Even Isaac Newton, who may be one of the most brilliant humans who ever lived, was also an alchemist, which is probably one of the more irrational methods of wasting time and effort that humans have ever come up with.

Here is a bit on Newton the alchemist:
Sir Isaac Newton, the famous seventeenth-century mathematician and scientist, though not generally known as an alchemist, practiced the art with a passion. Though he wrote over a million words on the subject, after his death in 1727, the Royal Society deemed that they were "not fit to be printed." The papers were rediscovered in the middle of the twentieth century and most scholars now concede that Newton was first an foremost an alchemist. It is also becoming obvious that the inspiration for Newton's laws of light and theory of gravity came from his alchemical work.

If one looks carefully, in the light of alchemical knowledge, at the definitive biography, Sir Isaac Newton by J. W. V. Sullivan, it is quite easy to realize the alchemical theories from which he was working. Sir Arthur Eddington, in reviewing this book, says: "The science in which Newton seems to have been chiefly interested, and on which he spent most of his time was alchemy. He read widely and made innumerable experiments, entirely without fruit so far as we know." One of his servants records: "He very rarely went to bed until two or three of the clock, sometimes not till five or six, lying about four or five hours, especially at springtime or autumn, at which time he used to employ about six weeks in his laboratory, the fire scarce going out night or day. What his aim might be I was unable to penetrate into." The answer is that Newton's experiments were concerned with nothing more or less than alchemy. (from Alchemy Rediscovered and Restored by A. Cockren)
http://www.alchemylab.com/isaac_newton.htm

On the one hand, you can say that Newton could have made much greater contributions to humanity if he hadn't been so preoccupied with something as ridiculous and un-scientific as alchemy, but on the other hand, you never know how much hope and inspiration alchemy provided Newton that later translated into legitimate discoveries that never would have happened had his curiosity not been stimulated by his irrational but consuming beliefs about alchemy.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:31 pm
by Gosso
MT,

Great stuff.  Looks like Newton "Followed His Bliss".  A good Campbell quote here is, "A vitalized person vitalizes the world".  Oh man, I am way over my Campbell quota for this forum (but it seems the Campbell forum is dead or just boring).

I agree that a little bit of craziness can go a long way in keeping you sane.  When you think about how crazy it is that we even exist -- I mean we evolved from star dust into human beings, simply through a series of accidental mutations.  The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the Universe is conscious, and we are just a part of that consciousness.  Tortoise previously linked to this site regarding the universal consciousness (or Cognitive Theoretic Model of the Universe): http://megafoundation.org/CTMU/Q&A/Archive.html

I'm not sure how deep the rabbit hole goes, but I'm willing to find out.

Also, I should say that I really wish I could be a Christian.  I really did try, and I thought i was hooked in, but I somehow got away.  There seems to be certain peace and energy that Christians exhibit.  Like I said before, I really admire Lewis and Tolkien, and was inspired by the "fruit" they created.  My only problem with Christians is when they become militant or get involved in politics and other peoples life's (or creating that annoying KONY video  ;D)

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:02 am
by MediumTex
Gosso wrote: Also, I should say that I really wish I could be a Christian.  I really did try, and I thought i was hooked in, but I somehow got away. 
All you really need to do is follow the teachings of Jesus.  People make it difficult by adding a bunch of other complicated stuff, but Jesus's message as recorded in the gospels is pretty basic and really just consists of the following:

1. Be skeptical of institutional concentrations of power
2. Seek direct experience of the divine
3. Be humble in the way you meet the world
4. Be kind to others
5. Become a student of love, especially the notion of unconditional love
6. Resist the pull of materialism
7. Don't filter experience through a lens of judgment

This framework seems pretty sturdy to me. 

I really think that religion should work without the need to resort to supernatural validation.  To me, supernatural claims are a sign of insecurity, not proof.

I can see God looking down at humans who want a miracle as confirmation of their faith and marveling at how we can somehow miss the countless miracles that we would see every day by simply opening our eyes and looking around. 

Imagine a person praying for a sign in the form of a fire in the sky and getting to heaven and asking God why he never gave him the sign that would confirm his faith.  God might point out that there WAS a fire in the sky...every day...it rose in the east and set in the west and allowed life to exist on earth.  "Ohhhhhhh," the fellow might say, "you mean THAT fire.  I was looking for something more like one of those military tracer rounds."

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:16 am
by Gosso
MT,

It seems people have a hard time growing out of the dependency stage of life.  And it doesn’t help that the Church and government prefer that we remain in this stage.  A population of scared and faithful people is much easier to control than a thinking and independent population.

I understand why faith can be such a comfort though.  It is like believing in Santa Claus as a child – was life better believing or not believing in Santa Claus?  I remember that it gave me plenty of joy and happiness.  So is the belief in the grownup version of Santa Claus (aka Jesus as Lord) a bad thing?  In some ways it is bad because it prevents us from growing up, but not everyone wants to grow up…

Although there are plenty of very intelligent and mature Christians, but they have normally discovered the deeper meaning and teachings of Jesus.  So if you combine this with the faith that He is Lord, then I think that can be a somewhat healthy combination.

I unfortunately went too deep and ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and was then BANISHED FOREVER…frig does that guy ever have a temper. :)

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:26 am
by MediumTex
Gosso wrote: Although there are plenty of very intelligent and mature Christians, but they have normally discovered the deeper meaning and teachings of Jesus.  So if you combine this with the faith that He is Lord, then I think that can be a somewhat healthy combination.
I'm not sure how many Christians have really come to a deep understanding of their faith.  Many people seem to be in this mode of simply doing what the church says is the will of God without thinking things through for themselves.  It's sort of like a spiritual version of the way people have come to see the state.  What I would suggest is something along the lines of spiritual libertarianism, which is ironically what Jesus seemed to be getting at in many of his teachings--i.e., freedom from an overbearing and oppressive institutional structure distorting the simple truths that can be easily seen by just looking around with clear eyes.
I unfortunately went too deep and ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and was then BANISHED FOREVER…frig does that guy ever have a temper. :)
If there is some larger truth to be realized regarding a creator or some God-like presence, I'm pretty sure we come to an understanding of it through our reason and rationality.  It's hard to imagine getting to Heaven and having God say: "You did pretty good, but I was really disappointed with the way you used your curiosity and reason to seek out truth.  My intention was for you to just do what other people told you." 

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:43 pm
by Gosso
I'm not the best person to defend faith, since I think it can be quite dangerous and opens the door to all types of charlatans.  But I have met a few Christians that have lost faith in the Church, yet maintain their faith in Jesus as Lord.  Lewis wrote about how he found church service to be boring and mostly pointless, yet continued to go to receive communion.

Faith is a strange and powerful thing.  It can give people a lot of comfort -- even if it is placed in an idea that doesn't make logical sense.  I'm guessing this is from our evolutionary past, and used as a means to deal with the knowledge that we will one day die.

Re: Literary and Academic Snobbery

Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:06 pm
by lazyboy
MediumTex wrote:
Gosso wrote: Also, I should say that I really wish I could be a Christian.  I really did try, and I thought i was hooked in, but I somehow got away. 
All you really need to do is follow the teachings of Jesus.  People make it difficult by adding a bunch of other complicated stuff, but Jesus's message as recorded in the gospels is pretty basic and really just consists of the following:

1. Be skeptical of institutional concentrations of power
2. Seek direct experience of the divine
3. Be humble in the way you meet the world
4. Be kind to others
5. Become a student of love, especially the notion of unconditional love
6. Resist the pull of materialism
7. Don't filter experience through a lens of judgment

This framework seems pretty sturdy to me. 

I really think that religion should work without the need to resort to supernatural validation.  To me, supernatural claims are a sign of insecurity, not proof.

I can see God looking down at humans who want a miracle as confirmation of their faith and marveling at how we can somehow miss the countless miracles that we would see every day by simply opening our eyes and looking around. 

Imagine a person praying for a sign in the form of a fire in the sky and getting to heaven and asking God why he never gave him the sign that would confirm his faith.  God might point out that there WAS a fire in the sky...every day...it rose in the east and set in the west and allowed life to exist on earth.  "Ohhhhhhh," the fellow might say, "you mean THAT fire.  I was looking for something more like one of those military tracer rounds."
These guidelines work for me and seem entirely consistent with the real basis of all authentic traditions of spirituality. It describes, with a few modifications in language, the essential teachings of the Buddha; who was also a reformer in his time. The great ones taught the truth as it was revealed to them. And they taught in the language and culture of their times. They were not concerned with the proliferation of belief systems or the establishment of religion. They were concerned with presenting the Truth, which came through directly experience, and sharing it. For myself, opening to direct experience, through contemplation and sharing in a dyadic format is one of the main activities I engage in.  Literature and knowledge is also very important; it records the realizations, methods, insight, beauty and humor of those whose backs we stand on. The lives of the knowledge holders and their teachings, poetry and literature representing all the great traditions should be considered precious. Some one recently told me that "all of the great rabbinical mystical teachers and knowledge holders of the Kabbalah were killed during WWll and that the Christians seem to have lost their operating manual." I dont know if that last part is completely true but it does seem to describe what's easily observable.