Gyroscopic Investing

I live in an area where snowfall and freezing to death tend to be an issue every winter. We have a few dozen logs that we can burn in a pinch, but the idea of getting an automatic whole-house generator seems very tempting — especially with our toddler bouncing around and the fact that power tends to go out more and more as bigger storms come through. Does anyone know anything about these kinds of whole-house generators?

Where is the best place to get one (Lowe's, or local electrician?)
Are they worth the investment or added expense?
Do they require a lot of maintenance each year?
What kind of fuel is best for them?
Are they quiet?

Our priorities would be survival appliances (heat, refrigerator), plus family room, home office, laundry and kitchen. Garage doors would be nice too.

We have a very large propane cylander in the back — it only runs our stove right now — and I've always wondered if that would makea good fuel source for a generator. Can anyone who has experience with generators lend some advice?

Thanks in advance.

How often does the power go out?

If it's not that often, I would be inclined to try to fit your needs into something that could be met by a portable generator that would potentially have other uses as well.

The Honda eu2000i is probably a little light for this application, but two of them can be used together to deliver 4,000 watts, which would probably meet the needs you are describing.

MediumTex wrote: How often does the power go out?

The power goes out anywhere between two to four times a season. Most of the time it doesn't go out more than a few hours, but it tends to go out for about 24-48 hours at least once or twice a year. Typically the longer the power goes out, the more dangerous the weather conditions are.

MediumTex wrote:If it's not that often, I would be inclined to try to fit your needs into something that could be met by a portable generator that would potentially have other uses as well.

The Honda eu2000i is probably a little light for this application, but two of them can be used together to deliver 4,000 watts, which would probably meet the needs you are describing.

My impression is that I would need at least 8kW...

http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/homeOwners.html

and I think I'd prefer a robust home standby generator — for the convenience — rather than a portable.

This looks like a nice one for a little under $2k that would meet your needs and which could be tied into to your existing propane supply.

LINK

Are you sure that getting a wood burning stove instead wouldn't be a better solution? (Or at least a fireplace insert that's designed to put out real heat. Most fire places don't produce much heat).

Coffee wrote: Are you sure that getting a wood burning stove instead wouldn't be a better solution? (Or at least a fireplace insert that's designed to put out real heat. Most fire places don't produce much heat).

That certainly would be a cost-effective solution. But, I'm thinking more along the lines of a mini-powerplant — something that will also power a microwave and automatically keep our frozen/refrigerated food from spoiling even if we happen to be out of the house.

Just make sure you know ahead of time what it costs to run 'em.  I've heard $100+ a day in some cases.  But that may have been a conversation I overheard about running a small gasoline-powered generator, like the kind you would use with an RV.

Also-- I know they have some that run on natural gas.  If your gas still works when you have these power outtages ... that might be the way to go? But maybe you don't have natural gas if you're using propane, I'm guessing?

Coffee wrote: Just make sure you know ahead of time what it costs to run 'em.  I've heard $100+ a day in some cases.  But that may have been a conversation I overheard about running a small gasoline-powered generator, like the kind you would use with an RV.

Also-- I know they have some that run on natural gas.  If your gas still works when you have these power outtages ... that might be the way to go? But maybe you don't have natural gas if you're using propane, I'm guessing?

Good point. Though, even $100/day would be worth saving all our groceries from spoiling over a 24/hour period. Of course, beyond 24-36 hours it would probably be worth it to just replace the food.

I suggest that you don't need an 8000W generator.  In a pinch you don't need everything operating at one time during an outage.
I run my essentials:  freezer, sump pump, furnace, washer or dyer (not similtaneously), and half the house lighting circuits.
I have wired all these essential circuits to one buss bar in my main power box along with my curcuit that feeds an outside outlet.  When we loose power, I shut the main power breaker to the house off, I start the generator.  I have an 8 gauge power cord with a male plug on each end.  I plug one end into the generator and one end into the outside outlet and reverse feed thru the outside curcuit.  I can manage fine with my 3300 W generator.  I have yet to try it with my 2000W honda but I think it will work and there will be less noise.

Gumby, If it is a snow storm, wouldn't your food keep fine in an unheated room?

stone wrote: Gumby, If it is a snow storm, wouldn't your food keep fine in an unheated room?

If the room is 70° when the power goes out, the refrigerator and freezer will warm up to spoilage temp much more quickly than the room will be able to fall to 40°. This is because a refrigerator and freezer are typically designed to keep food on the cusp of their spoilage zone — food spoils quickly above 40º. This means that you can't open your refrigerator/freezer when the power goes out, because doing so would speed up the spoilage process.

Besides, if the room temperature somehow dived to 40° we would freeze to death. You can't easily survive if your room is at refrigeration temperature.

I suppose you could put your food outside, but that would freeze everything and invite animals to raid your groceries.

Gumby,

The best type of generator you can get is a natural gas powered one that is hard-wired to your house with a bypass switch.  It should sit on a concrete slab away from your main building structure and be tested weekly or monthly to ensure normal operation.  Unfortunately, these are very expensive, and it sounds like you don't have natural gas available since you're using a propane tank.

I would say the best one in your situation would be a liquid propane generator.  While I have not personally used this one, it does have good reviews on Amazon and has an automatic transfer switch to safely disconnnect utility power automatically:

http://www.amazon.com/Generac-5875-Air- ... 503&sr=1-7

You will of course need a qualified electrician to install it.

Personally, I would stay away from gasoline generators.  They work well, however, you need to worry about gas going bad if you let it sit too long, as well as manually starting it up in the dark and running extension cords outside.  Chances are, when you do need to power it on, you're going to regret it because it has been sitting for a year, the gas is bad, and you can't find the extension cords you need in the dark with a flashlight.

Another option would be a diesel generator.  These don't have the problem of gas going bad, since they use diesel which has a much longer shelf life, however, they require more maintenance than a natural gas or LP generator and are generally more expensive since they are larger.  I work at a lot of data centers where we run diesel generators and these are the ones I have the most experience with.  I don't personally maintain them, but I am responsible for scheduling quarterly maintenance, weekly run testing, as well as regularly getting the fuel topped off.

Gumby, it just seems an extreme measure to take so as to keep something cool within a warm space within a cold space. Could you get a big box (normally kept outside) fill it full of ice and put your stuff in a smaller box in that- or somesuch Heath-Robinson set up?

stone wrote: Gumby, it just seems an extreme measure to take so as to keep something cool within a warm space within a cold space. Could you get a big box (normally kept outside) fill it full of ice and put your stuff in a smaller box in that- or somesuch Heath-Robinson set up?

Sometimes the temperature is 45º outside — too cold to survive, but too warm to keep food from spoiling. It doesn't actually need to be freezing for their to be snow falling. As long as the upper atmosphere is freezing, snow can fall.

How is a generator an extreme measure? Stone, I get the feeling like you've never been in a 24-48+ hour blackout during the winter time. It's absolutely miserable — particularly with a toddler. It's not like it just gets dark and you light a candle. It's more like being thrown back into the 1700s, with a survival challenge.

If you have the means to get a generator, why wouldn't you have one? — particularly if it can offer you all of the comforts you depend on each day.

Storm. Thank you. That was very helpful. You've earned your own name!

Gumby, sorry for being a spoil sport. I agree you make sense. My knee jerk reaction is always one like I had to this. I had the same conversation with my better half about getting a fancy horse transporter vehicle. I found it difficult to see how it was needed- but that isn't the point.

stone wrote: Gumby, sorry for being a spoil sport. I agree you make sense. My knee jerk reaction is always one like I had to this. I had the same conversation with my better half about getting a fancy horse transporter vehicle. I found it difficult to see how it was needed- but that isn't the point.

Well, I could see that being extreme. I justify the generator as a personal family survival/comfort expense.

You know, I've often thought about how silly the idea of having a refrigerator inside an air conditioned house is.  The refrigerator is not 100% efficient, so it generates more heat than it cools, which is exhausted into your living space, which then has to be removed by another inefficient air conditioner.  In the winter it is silly as well because we heat our house, which then requires the refrigerator to cool itself down.  I suppose in the winter at least we can use the waste heat to help heat our house.

If I ever had the ambition or desire to build a perfect home, I would try to build a pantry or refrigerator that utilized geothermal cooling/heating to keep things warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer.  But, I'm not a geophysicist so I just put the food in the Frigidaire and hope it stays cold... 

We live in an old house and the kitchen is an extension with abysmal wall insulation. I guess that has the mitigating effect that our refrigerator is in a room that for half the year seems to be at 4oC .

Death at 40 degrees?

You guys aren't from Minnesota.

I go outside with a tshirt on when it's 40 degrees out.  Lovely fall weather to have!

moda0306 wrote: Death at 40 degrees?

You guys aren't from Minnesota.

I go outside with a tshirt on when it's 40 degrees out.  Lovely fall weather to have!

hah! 40º in the sun might feel nice, but don't forget that 40º is the same temperature as a typical refrigerator. When was the last time you thought about putting a toddler inside of a refrigerator? You wouldn't. 40º is not safe — especially when the sun isn't shining.

40 C = 104 F

stone wrote:
We live in an old house and the kitchen is an extension with abysmal wall insulation. I guess that has the mitigating effect that our refrigerator is in a room that for half the year seems to be at 4oC .

He wrote 4º C. Not 40º C.

SteveGo wrote: 40 C = 104 F

stone wrote:
We live in an old house and the kitchen is an extension with abysmal wall insulation. I guess that has the mitigating effect that our refrigerator is in a room that for half the year seems to be at 4oC .

Gumby, I have enough blankets, sweatshirts, jackets, etc in my home that my pipes freezing would be a concern before hypothermia.  I even have a nice cold-weather sleeping bag.

That said I'd hate to expose a baby to that coldness around their face on a consistent basis.

Anyone thinking of a Honda generator.... my Dad loves his, and my '96 Accord wagon has 260k miles on it and runs like a champ...

Very reliable stuff.