Gyroscopic Investing

Here's an interesting 1962 memo by the Joint Chiefs of Staff describing planned false-flag operations in which deaths of civilians and military personnel are just part of the cost of business (the good stuff is in pages 10 to 15 of the PDF file):

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf

Does anybody think stuff like this doesn't go on today? I imagine in 60 years memos will become available about how they fomented war in Ukraine in order to destabilize Russia. It doesn't matter how many people die in Ukraine because Putin is a bad guy and America is a good guy, which is really about as deep as these people seem to think. Well, and also don't forget how much money can be made by sending billions of dollars in weapons to Ukraine, but really of course the money goes to American arms manufacturers.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the USA is the only country that does this stuff. I'm sure Russia and plenty of other countries do it too. I do think the USA may be one of the worst actors though, just based on the size of its military and the amount of money to be made by military contractors. "Follow the money" is quite often the simplest and most accurate path to the truth.

You're right, but If the US military-industrial complex wants bases on the Chinese and Russian borders, then the Russian and Chinese MIC want bases in Canada and Mexico, to the extent that they can afford it. I want those fights on the other side of the world from my house.

Slightly related, with the twitter unbannings/revelations, weren't there a few conservatives people on this forum who should have been banned for a month instead of forever?

boglerdude wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:25 am Slightly related, with the twitter unbannings/revelations, weren't there a few conservatives people on this forum who should have been banned for a month instead of forever?

This forum used to welcome conservative views, but that stopped being the case some time back. Even if the bans are reversed, I would guess that most of them will not return. Of course, there is a general feeling that in the current political environment it's not safe to publicly avow a conservative outlook, and that will probably prevent some of those views being expressed here even if the forum became more welcoming of (shall we say) diverse viewpoints.

sophie wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:07 am

boglerdude wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:25 am Slightly related, with the twitter unbannings/revelations, weren't there a few conservatives people on this forum who should have been banned for a month instead of forever?

This forum used to welcome conservative views, but that stopped being the case some time back. Even if the bans are reversed, I would guess that most of them will not return. Of course, there is a general feeling that in the current political environment it's not safe to publicly avow a conservative outlook, and that will probably prevent some of those views being expressed here even if the forum became more welcoming of (shall we say) diverse viewpoints.

Agree 100% I hardly ever visit this forum any longer because of the hostility towards libertarian views or at least views that challenge the current narrative. It is a shame because I enjoyed the ability to be able to openly discuss topics here.

I didn't come here for a while, so I didn't realize that people had been banned. I guess I knew that one guy had been, but as I recall, it was just for being obnoxious not for being conservative.

Sophie: do you have a view on the covid vaccines that you care to share with us?

Yes and no. I'd like to see this forum back to what it was a few years ago before saying my piece on such a topic. Not to mention, the evidence that has emerged about the FBI directly involving itself in moderating/censoring online speech at Twitter indicates that excessive caution is probably a good policy for the immediate future. I can only presume that this is still going on, and that we as yet have no idea how extensive that involvement is.

As far as those who have been banned: they were ostensibly banned for insulting behavior, which in most cases was hard to disagree with. However, I had noted that the same sort of behavior and outright trolling from progressives on the forum didn't merit an equivalent response. It was a very acrimonious situation for a while, which I think is partly why some of the discussions got out of hand. As in, I didn't enjoy reading them either.

stuper1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:11 am I didn't come here for a while, so I didn't realize that people had been banned. I guess I knew that one guy had been, but as I recall, it was just for being obnoxious not for being conservative.

I recall one prolific member who was conservative, but also increasingly bold about his anti-semitic views. It was the latter that got him banned IIRC. I think the average person would say rightly so because a few of his last posts were really pretty blatant.

glennds wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:54 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:11 am I didn't come here for a while, so I didn't realize that people had been banned. I guess I knew that one guy had been, but as I recall, it was just for being obnoxious not for being conservative.

I recall one prolific member who was conservative, but also increasingly bold about his anti-semitic views. It was the latter that got him banned IIRC. I think the average person would say rightly so because a few of his last posts were really pretty blatant.

Ah, ok, fair enough. I can understand that. Do you care to share his username? I'm just a curious guy who likes a little fun gossip on occasion. No worries if you don't want to.

One of my guilty pleasures is reading articles at unz.com. I'm never sure how much credence to give to what I read over there, and I disagree with much I read there, but you certainly get a different point of view, and it's obvious by reading the quality of the comments that a lot of smart people frequent the place. The biggest off-putting thing is there are many racist people who blame everything on African Americans or Jews or both working in concert. I probably would have stopped reading there long ago except for one thing: the guy who runs the place, Ron Unz, is Jewish. He seems to think that having a place where you can talk freely about just about anything is better than shutting down certain points of view.

glennds wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:54 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:11 am I didn't come here for a while, so I didn't realize that people had been banned. I guess I knew that one guy had been, but as I recall, it was just for being obnoxious not for being conservative.

I recall one prolific member who was conservative, but also increasingly bold about his anti-semitic views. It was the latter that got him banned IIRC. I think the average person would say rightly so because a few of his last posts were really pretty blatant.

Uhhhhh yeah I'd also be interested to find out who that was.

I am vaguely remembering the person but the user name has not yet come back to me.

My candidates would be:

pmward

murphy_p_t

SomeDude

Apologies if I have named anyone in good standing.

If I had to narrow it down to just one -- my best guess would be the middle one.

jalanlong wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:00 am

sophie wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:07 am

boglerdude wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:25 am Slightly related, with the twitter unbannings/revelations, weren't there a few conservatives people on this forum who should have been banned for a month instead of forever?

This forum used to welcome conservative views, but that stopped being the case some time back. Even if the bans are reversed, I would guess that most of them will not return. Of course, there is a general feeling that in the current political environment it's not safe to publicly avow a conservative outlook, and that will probably prevent some of those views being expressed here even if the forum became more welcoming of (shall we say) diverse viewpoints.

Agree 100% I hardly ever visit this forum any longer because of the hostility towards libertarian views or at least views that challenge the current narrative. It is a shame because I enjoyed the ability to be able to openly discuss topics here.

I’m right there with you. I keep telling myself to just stop coming here. Or maybe to have my political folders rights removed.

I think the market for liberty is tiny. You run into a few fellow travelers and get your hopes up. But it’s in vain. Most people want good things for the world but are willing to break a lot of eggs to make the omelette their way. There are freedoms I don’t want to lose but it’s clear that most people don’t see it that way.

yankees60 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:10 pm My candidates would be:

pmward

murphy_p_t

SomeDude

Apologies if I have named anyone in good standing.

If I had to narrow it down to just one -- my best guess would be the middle one.

Most recently it would have been SomeDude and murphy_p_t. It wouldn't have been pmward. Some people have left and wiped out their account and entire posting history which makes it tough to recall. I don't specifically remember anti-semitic comments (which is not the same as saying they never occurred).

I've been here long enough to remember people accusing this place of being a right-wing forum. So I don't know, it seems to vary as people come and go.

Things were more congenial pre-Trump, and then covid inflicted a lot of damage. There are a lot of polarizing topics floating around these days.

Murphy was the anti-semite. Not sure why Somedude was banned other than his anti-vax opinions. His posts were intelligent and well thought out IMO, but against the mainstream (usually wrong) narrative.

DogBreath wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:43 pm Murphy was the anti-semite. Not sure why Somedude was banned other than his anti-vax opinions. His posts were intelligent and well thought out IMO, but against the mainstream (usually wrong) narrative.

So who are you then?

I think Xan has been pretty reasonable when it comes to banning a user. I don't get the allegation that the forum is unfriendly toward conservatives because it's kinda obvious he's a libertarian conservative himself.

When I have seen someone banned it was not because of their political views, it was a civility issue. I think there is an assumption that conservatives were banned for being conservatives. What really happened is assholes got banned for being assholes. Some were conservative and some were not, but it was the asshole part that got them banned, not the political leaning.

glennds wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:31 pm When I have seen someone banned it was not because of their political views, it was a civility issue. I think there is an assumption that conservatives were banned for being conservatives. What really happened is assholes got banned for being assholes. Some were conservative and some were not, but it was the asshole part that got them banned, not the political leaning.

I agree with this. It's been the abrasive and antagonistic posters that have run into problems.

I Shrugged wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:28 pm

DogBreath wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:43 pm Murphy was the anti-semite. Not sure why Somedude was banned other than his anti-vax opinions. His posts were intelligent and well thought out IMO, but against the mainstream (usually wrong) narrative.

So who are you then?

The artist formerly known as pugchief. I was not banned, I left voluntarily.

glennds wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:31 pm
I think Xan has been pretty reasonable when it comes to banning a user. I don't get the allegation that the forum is unfriendly toward conservatives because it's kinda obvious he's a libertarian conservative himself.

When I have seen someone banned it was not because of their political views, it was a civility issue. I think there is an assumption that conservatives were banned for being conservatives. What really happened is assholes got banned for being assholes. Some were conservative and some were not, but it was the asshole part that got them banned, not the political leaning.

I deem this to be 100% accurate!

DogBreath wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:11 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:28 pm

DogBreath wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:43 pm
Murphy was the anti-semite. Not sure why Somedude was banned other than his anti-vax opinions. His posts were intelligent and well thought out IMO, but against the mainstream (usually wrong) narrative.

So who are you then?

The artist formerly known as pugchief. I was not banned, I left voluntarily.

1. Prince
2. Kenye
3. And, now ............... pugchief!!!!

Welcome back!

Accusing Xan of using the ban hammer to censor conservative voices, particularly in this political climate, is quite over the top. Only a person whose purpose is to disrupt and to foment further discord would make such a serious, and thoroughly baseless, assertion. I find the timing of this accusation, apparently intended to resonate against headlines calling for the prosecution of Zuckerberg, Dorsey et al., to be especially troubling.

The very slight amount of moderation that has occurred on this forum has not resulted from the substance of the political views expressed, but from the persistently abusive manner in which a few isolated individuals have chosen to make their views known. Their purpose--and I say this with some authority--was to break down the forum and to create havoc rather than to participate in bona fide debate. We've seen everything from sociopathic sockpuppets to suffocating displays of non-stop parody to the blanketing of the forum with posts amounting to barely more than distracting chatter. Under the circumstances, I think Xan has exercised a great deal of restraint.

Totally agree with Maddy on everything she wrote. Xan has done a great job here and been very careful not to shut people down unless they really cross a line (or just flat out ask to be banned!).

barrett wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:57 am Totally agree with Maddy on everything she wrote. Xan has done a great job here and been very careful not to shut people down unless they really cross a line (or just flat out ask to be banned!).

Amen to this, and Welcome back Pug!

+1 on glennds and Maddy's comments.

There are posters here now that I think are way off the rails in terms of what they believe the facts to be and their analysis of them. Having learned my lesson in the "Great Covid Wars" my response now is non-response. However, they bring a viewpoint and do so with courtesy and write cogently. This is good diversity of thought and one of the great things about this board.

Provocative deliberate destructiveness as an MO unchecked on a board usually means the death of the board. And I think anyone still here witnessed "live" the board was dying. Good moderators (which I think Xan is) know when it's time to give someone the toss. The folks tossed had, IMHO, been over that line for quite a while. People just get sick of that stuff.

And since this is the politics section...kinda like Trumpians are discovering.

And since this is a community...it's good to see people coming back.

DogBreath wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 4:11 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:28 pm
So who are you then?

The artist formerly known as pugchief. I was not banned, I left voluntarily.

The Puginator!
A Christmas gift come early!