Gyroscopic Investing

Well, I finally got my tax refund the other day, after sending in $5000+ extra, in order to get my $5000 in I-bonds.

Instead I got a paper check for the whole amount.

Now, the IRS did adjust my refund due to a computation error, increasing it by about $100. I don't think that was the problem, though, because the "where's my refund" phone recording told me about the adjustment, and then after that told me something along the lines of "your bank refused the direct deposit so we were forced to send a paper check".

The representative on the phone (after being on hold almost an hour and a half) is convinced that it was an oversight, that they missed form 8888 completely. I don't think that's right (nor acceptable...), given what the recording was saying. I'm also not sure how the Treasury can "refuse" the bond purchase.

Unless... Are we absolutely certain the $10K/year/SSN limit does not apply to these tax refund bonds? Has anybody bought $10K in bonds and also gotten tax refund bonds?

And, does anybody see any way that I can get my I-bonds? The person on the phone was adamant that nothing could be done since the check had been mailed.

Xan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:44 pm Well, I finally got my tax refund the other day, after sending in $5000+ extra, in order to get my $5000 in I-bonds.

Instead I got a paper check for the whole amount.

Now, the IRS did adjust my refund due to a computation error, increasing it by about $100. I don't think that was the problem, though, because the "where's my refund" phone recording told me about the adjustment, and then after that told me something along the lines of "your bank refused the direct deposit so we were forced to send a paper check".

The representative on the phone (after being on hold almost an hour and a half) is convinced that it was an oversight, that they missed form 8888 completely. I don't think that's right (nor acceptable...), given what the recording was saying. I'm also not sure how the Treasury can "refuse" the bond purchase.

Unless... Are we absolutely certain the $10K/year/SSN limit does not apply to these tax refund bonds? Has anybody bought $10K in bonds and also gotten tax refund bonds?

Wow, what rigmarole. Sounds like it worked out though, in the end. It's really striking how different the tax/reporting/financial infrastructure is in the U.S. versus Canada.

Our government once had a Savings Bond program that was similar to the I-bond program in the U.S. (as far as I can tell anyway). We gave that up about a decade ago and now all we have are marketable treasury securities.

Smith1776 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:50 pmWow, what rigmarole. Sounds like it worked out though, in the end. It's really striking how different the tax/reporting/financial infrastructure is in the U.S. versus Canada.

Our government once had a Savings Bond program that was similar to the I-bond program in the U.S. (as far as I can tell anyway). We gave that up about a decade ago and now all we have are marketable treasury securities.

No, it didn't work out. I didn't get my I-bonds.

Xan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:53 pm

Smith1776 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:50 pmWow, what rigmarole. Sounds like it worked out though, in the end. It's really striking how different the tax/reporting/financial infrastructure is in the U.S. versus Canada.

Our government once had a Savings Bond program that was similar to the I-bond program in the U.S. (as far as I can tell anyway). We gave that up about a decade ago and now all we have are marketable treasury securities.

No, it didn't work out. I didn't get my I-bonds.

Better than them just taking your money and telling you to pound sand I suppose.

In 2020 I bought $10,000 in iBonds plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2019 return to purchase iBonds. Instead, like you, I just got a $5,000 tax refund.

In 2021 I bought $10,000 in iBonds plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2020 return to purchase iBonds. I did notice that I may have not correctly filled out the form for the 2019 return and that may have been the reason why instead of getting iBonds purchased I got a refund. This time the $5,000 did result in receiving paper iBonds totaling $5,000.

in 2022 I bought $10,000 in iBond plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2021 return to purchase iBonds.
I filled out the form the exact same way I'd done it for the 2020 return which resulted in the iBonds purchases. I thought I finally had it down. Instead, I again got a $5,000 refund and no iBonds purchases.

So I'm only shooting 1-3 on purchasing iBonds via a tax return refund.

yankees60 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:16 pm In 2020 I bought $10,000 in iBonds plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2019 return to purchase iBonds. Instead, like you, I just got a $5,000 tax refund.

In 2021 I bought $10,000 in iBonds plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2020 return to purchase iBonds. I did notice that I may have not correctly filled out the form for the 2019 return and that may have been the reason why instead of getting iBonds purchased I got a refund. This time the $5,000 did result in receiving paper iBonds totaling $5,000.

in 2022 I bought $10,000 in iBond plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2021 return to purchase iBonds.
I filled out the form the exact same way I'd done it for the 2020 return which resulted in the iBonds purchases. I thought I finally had it down. Instead, I again got a $5,000 refund and no iBonds purchases.

So I'm only shooting 1-3 on purchasing iBonds via a tax return refund.

So in 2022 (your filing for tax year 2021, right?) you filled out the forms correctly but did not receive your bonds. That sounds like exactly what happened to me just now.

The "where's my refund" site says:
-----------------
The balance of your refund is $x,xxx.xx. You requested the direct deposit of your refund into more than one bank account. However, one or more of the deposits were returned to us by your bank. When this happens we must issue a paper check instead of a direct deposit. We sent a check to you at the address shown on your tax return. Only one check will be issued if more than one deposit is returned on the same day.
-----------------

The only thing remotely resembling what that describes is my request on form 8888 for $5000 of the refund (which was a bit more than that) to go to savings bonds.

Vinny, if you plug in your information at Check My Refund Status does it say the same thing?

Xan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:26 pm

yankees60 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:16 pm
In 2020 I bought $10,000 in iBonds plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2019 return to purchase iBonds. Instead, like you, I just got a $5,000 tax refund.

In 2021 I bought $10,000 in iBonds plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2020 return to purchase iBonds. I did notice that I may have not correctly filled out the form for the 2019 return and that may have been the reason why instead of getting iBonds purchased I got a refund. This time the $5,000 did result in receiving paper iBonds totaling $5,000.

in 2022 I bought $10,000 in iBond plus directed $5,000 of my refund from my 2021 return to purchase iBonds.
I filled out the form the exact same way I'd done it for the 2020 return which resulted in the iBonds purchases. I thought I finally had it down. Instead, I again got a $5,000 refund and no iBonds purchases.

So I'm only shooting 1-3 on purchasing iBonds via a tax return refund.

So in 2022 (your filing for tax year 2021, right?) you filled out the forms correctly but did not receive your bonds. That sounds like exactly what happened to me just now.

The "where's my refund" site says:
-----------------
The balance of your refund is $x,xxx.xx. You requested the direct deposit of your refund into more than one bank account. However, one or more of the deposits were returned to us by your bank. When this happens we must issue a paper check instead of a direct deposit. We sent a check to you at the address shown on your tax return. Only one check will be issued if more than one deposit is returned on the same day.
-----------------

The only thing remotely resembling what that describes is my request on form 8888 for $5000 of the refund (which was a bit more than that) to go to savings bonds.

Vinny, if you plug in your information at Check My Refund Status does it say the same thing?

What you state is your first paragraph is all true.

When I put my information in where you said to go this was my result:

Thanks for checking, Vinny. So you don't have that same statement about direct deposit.

I guess the whole thing is just a crapshoot.

Xan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:47 pm
Thanks for checking, Vinny. So you don't have that same statement about direct deposit.

I guess the whole thing is just a crapshoot.

Now that you have me reviewing my submitted tax return it looks like I made the same mistake the 2021 return that I made with the 2019 return. I did NOT check that box!

Don't know how I missed such a simple think like that again for the second time. I can guarantee I will never miss it again.

yankees60 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:51 pm

Xan wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:47 pm Thanks for checking, Vinny. So you don't have that same statement about direct deposit.

I guess the whole thing is just a crapshoot.

Now that you have me reviewing my submitted tax return it looks like I made the same mistake the 2021 return that I made with the 2019 return. I did NOT check that box!

Don't know how I missed such a simple think like that again for the second time. I can guarantee I will never miss it again.

Capture.JPG

Aha! Glad I could help resolve the mystery.

Unfortunately I still have mine: I did check that box.

I bought my full aliquot of online I Bonds in January, and also got paper bonds with my tax refund in March. I filed in February as per usual, to reduce the chance that an identity thief will beat me to it - under the theory that he who files first, files best.

I wonder if the problem is the timing of your refund, Xan? As in, maybe the IRS has some logistical issue with extended deadlines for tax returns - which I assume was the case here, if you only just got your refund. Or maybe they only have a certain amount of paper bonds available, and it's a first come first serve situation.

FWIW, the bonds came in $50 and $100 denominations, which made for a rather annoyingly thick pile of paper. Is that what usually happens? I had never done this before. Those bonds are quite useful as family gifts, though.

sophie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:04 am
I bought my full aliquot of online I Bonds in January, and also got paper bonds with my tax refund in March. I filed in February as per usual, to reduce the chance that an identity thief will beat me to it - under the theory that he who files first, files best.

I wonder if the problem is the timing of your refund, Xan? As in, maybe the IRS has some logistical issue with extended deadlines for tax returns - which I assume was the case here, if you only just got your refund. Or maybe they only have a certain amount of paper bonds available, and it's a first come first serve situation.

FWIW, the bonds came in $50 and $100 denominations, which made for a rather annoyingly thick pile of paper. Is that what usually happens? I had never done this before. Those bonds are quite useful as family gifts, though.

1) I filed on time. But it seems like my problem was forgetting to check that box.
2) Yes. The one out of three times I was successful in purchasing with my tax refund I think I got four $1,000, five $100, and ten $50?

sophie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:04 am I bought my full aliquot of online I Bonds in January, and also got paper bonds with my tax refund in March. I filed in February as per usual, to reduce the chance that an identity thief will beat me to it - under the theory that he who files first, files best.

I wonder if the problem is the timing of your refund, Xan? As in, maybe the IRS has some logistical issue with extended deadlines for tax returns - which I assume was the case here, if you only just got your refund. Or maybe they only have a certain amount of paper bonds available, and it's a first come first serve situation.

FWIW, the bonds came in $50 and $100 denominations, which made for a rather annoyingly thick pile of paper. Is that what usually happens? I had never done this before. Those bonds are quite useful as family gifts, though.

1. I keep my annual $5,000 in I-bonds in their original envelope stacked up in my local bank safe deposit box. The varying denominations don't bother me at all-- in fact, they give me a warm glow every time I visit my growing pile.

2. My father-in-law loved to give savings bonds for his grandchildren' birthdays. I hope to carry on his tradition. For the last few years I have made nieces and nephews co-owners to some of my paper I-bonds. When they get old enough for lessons in compound interest and inflation, I hope to use them to teach Benjamin Franklin's injunction that "a penny saved is a penny earned."

Could I trouble you guys for some help?

I just opened a Treasury Direct account. After receiving an account number, I went to the "Log In" page. However, there is no place on the "Log In" page to insert your account number or password. Instead, the page asks you to choose between two buttons depending upon whether your account number begins with a letter or not. (Mine begins with a number.) When I press the "doesn't begin with a letter" button, I am routed to another screen that tells you all about Legacy Treasury Direct. But still nowhere to log in. I attempted to call Treasury Direct by phone but--even in the wee morning hours the recording says there's a two-hour wait. I don't have phone batteries that last that long!

What am I doing wrong? How do I log in?

Maddy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:35 am Could I trouble you guys for some help?

I just opened a Treasury Direct account. After receiving an account number, I went to the "Log In" page. However, there is no place on the "Log In" page to insert your account number or password. Instead, the page asks you to choose between two buttons depending upon whether your account number begins with a letter or not. (Mine begins with a number.) When I press the "doesn't begin with a letter" button, I am routed to another screen that tells you all about Legacy Treasury Direct. But still nowhere to log in. I attempted to call Treasury Direct by phone but--even in the wee morning hours the recording says there's a two-hour wait. I don't have phone batteries that last that long!

What am I doing wrong? How do I log in?

Hey Maddy,

I just logged on and didn't have an issue, though my account number begins with a letter. I just wanted to let you know that there have been a LOT of posts on Bogleheads in recent days saying that the "new" TD site is not working correctly. So maybe just wait if you can.

I am curious if you are trying to buy I-Bonds to lock in the 9.62% rate (4.81% over six months) before the end of October. I ask because I had thought about trying to purchase some more this month but have decided to hold off to see if there will be a non-zero (positive) fixed rate starting on 11/1. That 4.81% sounds great but holding bonds that have a positive rate of interest above inflation (but before taxes) is probably the better deal in the long run.

Apologies if that last paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish!

Thanks, Barrett. You didn't directly answer my question, but you DID address the pressure I was feeling to get it done prior to October 31. I appreciate the reassurance that all may not be lost.

> holding bonds that have a positive rate of interest above inflation (but before taxes) is probably the better deal in the long run

http://tipswatch.com/2022/10/14/ignore- ... n-october/

But I might prefer to gamble on a higher fixed rate, despite the odds...

boglerdude wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:45 am > holding bonds that have a positive rate of interest above inflation (but before taxes) is probably the better deal in the long run

http://tipswatch.com/2022/10/14/ignore- ... n-october/

But I might prefer to gamble on a higher fixed rate, despite the odds...

Thanks for posting the TipsWatch article, boglerdude. His biggest point is probably this:

"Starting off with a rate of 9.62% gives the October buyer a huge head start over the buyer in November, especially if the fixed rate stays at 0.0%. That’s interest of $481 in the first six months, which will continue to compound higher as long as you hold the I Bond. Keep in mind that a fixed rate of 0.5% equates to $50 a year on a $10,000 investment, before compounding. It will take 8 years to catch up with the October buyer, even if the fixed rate rises to 0.5%. If the fixed rate stays at 0.0%, the buyer in October is the eternal winner, because the November buyer can never catch up."

Good to see the actual math rather than just going with my "feeling" that waiting very well might be better.

Maddy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:40 pm Thanks, Barrett. You didn't directly answer my question, but you DID address the pressure I was feeling to get it done prior to October 31. I appreciate the reassurance that all may not be lost.

Maddy,

1. Every recent (past 10 years) TreasuryDirect account that I know begins with a letter, not a number. The first step you might take is to confirm your account to make certain you have not made a transcription error of some kind.

2. Barrett is right: TreasuryDirect is being inundated with requests for action because of the upcoming 1 Nov. re-set. The website stalled over the last weekend due to gift box software issues. I would not be surprised if other issues emerge in the next few days.
Hope that helps.

jhogue, you may have saved the day! I went back to the e-mail I received from Treasury Direct after creating the account, and the first digit of the account number was actually a letter. My eyes are so bad these days!

Let's see if that makes a difference!

Maddy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:18 am jhogue, you may have saved the day! I went back to the e-mail I received from Treasury Direct after creating the account, and the first digit of the account number was actually a letter. My eyes are so bad these days!

Let's see if that makes a difference!

It should work. I bought some st bills just today.

I'm not a site hater but for me the one thing I not infrequently screw up is when you get to the little keyboard where you click to type in your password...so click slowly and purposefully there. :-)

I am about to file my tax returns and again I'm trying to purchase $5,000 worth of iBonds with part of my refund.

So far I have only been 1-3 in the three prior years. Tried three times and only successful once.

I thought I'd seen why I was unsuccessful last year.

But now I'm seeing why I was unsuccessful last year and will again be this year.

I use H&R Block's tax software to create / file my returns.

Everything was all set in the return. Form 8888 created with the box being checked on line 35a on page 3 of 1040-SR that the form was being included in the return.

HOWEVER!

Once I tell the program I am going to be efile it runs a check of the file and then takes out both the Form 8888 and that check mark!

I've put it back about three more times and each time it gets removed. I will try one more time. If another failure it will be another year of not being able to that additional $5,000 on top of the annual $10,000.

I am also realizing that the only time I was successful was when I filed the return via paper.

I don't have a working printer at home and do not want to spend the time going to someone's house to pick up printed copies for me and then going to the post office to mail it.

I was only going to give it ONE more try.

I don't know what I did any differently but this time after it checked the file the form and the checkmark remained!

Plus at the end of the process I got this:



Had definitely never before seen that on an e-file.

Well that was quite short-term happiness!

I'm sure that Form 8888 is the source of the problem.

Hey Vinny,

I feel your pain on this. That tax software can be quite a challenge if you want to do something that isn't what the programmers expected.

I know it's too late for you this year, but just to give you an alternate data point, I use turbotax and have bought savings bonds with my refund without a hitch for the last several years. But, I understand that the choice of how to do one's taxes goes way beyond ease of savings bond purchases!

Good luck!