Gyroscopic Investing

Why do 30% of your fellow Democrats also believe that Trump won the election?

The undertone here is: How dare the American people disagree with us, CNN, the font of all that is holy?? Based on their numbers it looks like about half the population (70% of Republicans, 30% of Democrats) believe that the election results were not valid. I don't care what CNN's opinion is, in the face of numbers like that. This rises to the level of a constitutional crisis.

And by the way, CNN's position is not supported in the slightest. There were a number of concrete allegations made, ranging from pointing out statistical anomalies that could not be explained to reports of non-legitimately sourced ballots to irregularities in how ballot inspections and voting observers were treated. None of them, to my knowledge, have ever been specifically investigated, still less refuted. So I don't know how they can say that the allegations are either true or false. I certainly can't say that either, which means that I still believe it is possible that the election's outcome was altered by unfair means. Which means that the election needs to be considered illegitimate until that possibility can be ruled out.

Note that I'm not saying that this is more than a possibility. It's also perfectly understandable to me that plenty of people could have voted in favor of Republican candidates but voted against Trump because they couldn't stand him. Actually I should say that I expect that probably was the case..."understandable" is too strong because, well, be careful what you wish for...a lot of those people are almost certainly regretting their choice, or will soon once they realize what's happening.

I Shrugged wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 2:08 pm Why do 30% of your fellow Democrats also believe that Trump won the election?

That's not what the article he linked says.

... Although there is no evidence of fraud or wrongdoing in the 2020 election, many still say that Biden did not legitimately win enough votes to become president. The poll suggests the share of Americans who believe that falsehood has held roughly steady since just before he took office in January at 30%. Those doubts are concentrated among Republicans, 70% of whom say they do not think Biden won enough votes to be president.....

For whatever it's worth, and not saying I agree or disagree with it.

tomfoolery wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 12:13 pm Of course we can’t get people to wear masks and get vaccines when 70% of republicans are Trumpanzees who believe the falsehood that the election was rigged.

And now we have a dog and pony show of some so-called ninjas doing a pseudo-audit in Arizona that is closed to the press except the Trumponians at ONe Fake News Network.

Seriously how do republicans believe this stuff?

This election stealing nonsense is the big lie of our generation. And it’s being justified to enact voter suppression laws that put Jim Crow to shame. Also something about climate crisis.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/30/politics ... index.html

You sound worried. Deep down you know that the election was stolen but you don't care because to liberals and communists the end always justifies the means.

glennds wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 3:35 pm

I Shrugged wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 2:08 pm Why do 30% of your fellow Democrats also believe that Trump won the election?

That's not what the article he linked says.

... Although there is no evidence of fraud or wrongdoing in the 2020 election, many still say that Biden did not legitimately win enough votes to become president. The poll suggests the share of Americans who believe that falsehood has held roughly steady since just before he took office in January at 30%. Those doubts are concentrated among Republicans, 70% of whom say they do not think Biden won enough votes to be president.....

For whatever it's worth, and not saying I agree or disagree with it.

I didn't read the linked article. I was just repeating something I heard on the internet. So it must be true.

Don wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 4:36 pm

tomfoolery wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 12:13 pm Of course we can’t get people to wear masks and get vaccines when 70% of republicans are Trumpanzees who believe the falsehood that the election was rigged.

And now we have a dog and pony show of some so-called ninjas doing a pseudo-audit in Arizona that is closed to the press except the Trumponians at ONe Fake News Network.

Seriously how do republicans believe this stuff?

This election stealing nonsense is the big lie of our generation. And it’s being justified to enact voter suppression laws that put Jim Crow to shame. Also something about climate crisis.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/30/politics ... index.html

You sound worried. Deep down you know that the election was stolen but you don't care because to liberals and communists the end always justifies the means.

How come he only sounds worried, but when I said it, I sounded worried AND guilty?

Haha! You got me there.

there is no doubt bad things happened

https://www.wral.com/pennsylvania-man-s ... ersion=amp

I Shrugged wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 2:08 pm Why do 30% of your fellow Democrats also believe that Trump won the election?

Because 70% of democrats are obviously liars as opposed to 30% of repukes.

They literally kicked out poll watchers and boarded up windows while batches of unfolded ballots with only Joe's name on them continued to be counted. Trump was up by a landslide on election night. He only got 1% of the votes cast and counted after.

Biden and Harris were so unpopular Trump probably got over 400 electoral votes.

So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm
So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

yankees60 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 pm

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

The same kind of geniuses that are capable of concocting a pandemic, and then masterminding a vaccine that is really an instrument of genocide, all for reasons that would be impossible for a normal mortal to grasp.

yankees60 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 pm

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

Not taking a side on this topic, but all it takes is a handful of counties in a handful of states to swing an election.

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 4:38 am

yankees60 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 pm

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm
So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

Not taking a side on this topic, but all it takes is a handful of counties in a handful of states to swing an election.

Yes. But who is the mastermind behind this highly selective process AND with the knowledge to be able to interfere with each of these unique systems?

yankees60 wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 4:38 am

yankees60 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 pm

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

Not taking a side on this topic, but all it takes is a handful of counties in a handful of states to swing an election.

Yes. But who is the mastermind behind this highly selective process AND with the knowledge to be able to interfere with each of these unique systems?

Especially in light of the pipeline topic being raised, I think this is a weird question. With the stakes being much, much higher than a $5 million ransom, you don't think somebody could hack a significant number of the swing counties in the country, many of which are responsible for their own IT security?

Xan wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 am

yankees60 wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 4:38 am

yankees60 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 pm

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm
So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

Not taking a side on this topic, but all it takes is a handful of counties in a handful of states to swing an election.

Yes. But who is the mastermind behind this highly selective process AND with the knowledge to be able to interfere with each of these unique systems?

Especially in light of the pipeline topic being raised, I think this is a weird question. With the stakes being much, much higher than a $5 million ransom, you don't think somebody could hack a significant number of the swing counties in the country, many of which are responsible for their own IT security?

I think many in this forum, including you, are better qualified to answer that question than me. The pipeline was one challenge to overcome. Here there are a handful X a handful of challenges to overcome.

yankees60 wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 10:33 am

Xan wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 9:06 am

yankees60 wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 4:38 am

yankees60 wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 10:28 pm

MarketIfTouched wrote: ↑Thu May 13, 2021 9:36 pm So a nefarious entity can disrupt computer systems operations at a major private oil pipeline, and a disruption to public voting computer systems is inconceivable?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have 50 different states each with 50 unique voting processes. What entity is going to master / disrupt that?

Not taking a side on this topic, but all it takes is a handful of counties in a handful of states to swing an election.

Yes. But who is the mastermind behind this highly selective process AND with the knowledge to be able to interfere with each of these unique systems?

Especially in light of the pipeline topic being raised, I think this is a weird question. With the stakes being much, much higher than a $5 million ransom, you don't think somebody could hack a significant number of the swing counties in the country, many of which are responsible for their own IT security?

I think many in this forum, including you, are better qualified to answer that question than me. The pipeline was one challenge to overcome. Here there are a handful X a handful of challenges to overcome.

I would say that "take down this particular pipeline" is probably much harder than "find 15 out of these 100 counties that you can hack".

To be fair, the hackers who hacked the pipeline didn't have to hack that particular pipeline; they're just looking for companies in general that they can hack and found that one.

Edit: I would also say that given significant incentive, like swinging a presidential election, ANY system that is accessible from the public Internet is probably hackable pretty easily. Not saying whether or not that happened at any given time. But really no system can be said to be unhackable if it's on the Internet. So one big question is, how air-gapped are all these counties' voting systems? And even when they're air-gapped, what are the protocols surrounding access to the machines? For example, the US and Israel (it seems) cooperated to create a worm called StuxNet that infected air-gapped Iranian nuclear centrifuges. Do we think Russia and China aren't trying something similar?

You guys are considering an "Ocean's Eleven" type of scenario of sophisticated hackers possibly swinging the election.

But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I would never question the integrity of our election, of course. As tomfoolery pointed out, that would be Trumpanzee extremism. Just making an observation that the hacker theory is probably overkill.

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:11 pm
But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I could see Moe, Curly and even Shemp going in on something like that.
But never Larry.

glennds wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:11 pm But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I could see Moe, Curly and even Shemp going in on something like that.
But never Larry.

The Three Stooges would have all voted for Trump since they're stooges. So I don't think any of them would have tried to swing the election for Biden.

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 3:27 pm

glennds wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:33 pm

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:11 pm But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I could see Moe, Curly and even Shemp going in on something like that.
But never Larry.

The Three Stooges would have all voted for Trump since they're stooges. So I don't think any of them would have tried to swing the election for Biden.

Can't argue there. Nicely played.

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:11 pm You guys are considering an "Ocean's Eleven" type of scenario of sophisticated hackers possibly swinging the election.

But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I would never question the integrity of our election, of course. As tomfoolery pointed out, that would be Trumpanzee extremism. Just making an observation that the hacker theory is probably overkill.

A person I work with told me about being a poll worker in a place where they don't verify your identity when you go to vote in person (Pennsylvania), and about people voting for other people.

Knowing how easy it is to do, and how serious a lot of people take politics, one could easily see it being more common than acknowledged.

Kriegsspiel wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:03 pm

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:11 pm
You guys are considering an "Ocean's Eleven" type of scenario of sophisticated hackers possibly swinging the election.

But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I would never question the integrity of our election, of course. As tomfoolery pointed out, that would be Trumpanzee extremism. Just making an observation that the hacker theory is probably overkill.

A person I work with told me about being a poll worker in a place where they don't verify your identity when you go to vote in person (Pennsylvania), and about people voting for other people.

Knowing how easy it is to do, and how serious a lot of people take politics, one could easily see it being more common than acknowledged.

Would one side have more of a propensity to do it than the other? Or, could it be more of a case of one cancelling out the other?

yankees60 wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 9:20 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 5:03 pm

Tortoise wrote: ↑Fri May 14, 2021 2:11 pm You guys are considering an "Ocean's Eleven" type of scenario of sophisticated hackers possibly swinging the election.

But when you have universal mail-in voting with no voter ID requirement, the ability to kick poll watchers out of polling places without any consequences, and the ability to stretch out vote-counting over days or weeks, even the Three Stooges probably could have swung the election.

I would never question the integrity of our election, of course. As tomfoolery pointed out, that would be Trumpanzee extremism. Just making an observation that the hacker theory is probably overkill.

A person I work with told me about being a poll worker in a place where they don't verify your identity when you go to vote in person (Pennsylvania), and about people voting for other people.

Knowing how easy it is to do, and how serious a lot of people take politics, one could easily see it being more common than acknowledged.

Would one side have more of a propensity to do it than the other? Or, could it be more of a case of one cancelling out the other?

Why not at least shut it down going forward, so it isn't an issue?

tomfoolery wrote: ↑Sun May 16, 2021 1:45 pm Because “shutting down voter fraud” is Trump-speak for voter suppression. Republican governors across the country have enacted modern era Jim Crow laws to shut out minorities from voting.

It's actually deeply concerning for me now, seeing minorities behind the wheel of a car, because we know they aren't getting the drivers training classes that you take when you get your drivers license.

I'm not clear on whether this was because they didn't know where the DMV was or because of racism, but Democrats are very clear that minorities do not have drivers licenses.