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https://www.gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10417
As I was watching the debates the other night only one word came to mind to describe Bernie -- parasite.Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:26 pm Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?
It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
All I can say is holy bleep.
Don’t expect electric cars and trucks to get as cheap as their gas-powered rivals anytime soon. A new report from the MIT Energy Initiative warns that EVs may never reach the same sticker price so long as they rely on lithium-ion batteries, the energy storage technology that powers most of today’s consumer electronics. In fact, it’s likely to take another decade just to eliminate the difference in the lifetime costs between the vehicle categories, which factors in the higher fuel and maintenance expenses of standard cars and trucks.
The findings sharply contradict those of other research groups, which have concluded that electric vehicles could achieve price parity with gas-powered ones in the next five years. The lingering price difference predicted by the MIT report could stunt the transition to lower-emission vehicles, requiring governments to extend subsides or enact stricter mandates to achieve the same adoption of EVs and cuts in climate pollution.
link
From the link:Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:26 pm Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?
It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
All I can say is holy bleep.
$2.2 trillion for that one item? And mind you it's just one on a list of about 50. Wow, this guy is living someplace I've never been....GT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:45 pmFrom the link:Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:26 pm Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?
It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
All I can say is holy bleep.
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."
what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?
I completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.WiseOne wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:00 pm$2.2 trillion for that one item? And mind you it's just one on a list of about 50. Wow, this guy is living someplace I've never been....GT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:45 pmFrom the link:Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:26 pm Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?
It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
All I can say is holy bleep.
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."
what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?
It's his proposed tax on all stock/ETF transactions. He's pretending like it would only hit Wall Street traders, and not, say, the entire working population with 401Ks or IRAs, which are going to be hit with lower returns because of this. He's also proposed a wealth tax as well as making all capital gains and dividends taxed as ordinary income. These sources together would pay for, oh, maybe 3 or 4 of his 50 wish list items. No idea how he plans to pay for the rest - not just the items but all the unintended consequences, like colleges raising tuitions sky high because hey, the government is paying the tab, or the floods of people coming across the wide open border to claim all that free health care.
To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...
I certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:32 pmI completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.
Basically the tax code says that ALL income from whatever source is taxed unless it is specifically exempted.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:49 pmI certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:32 pmI completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.
What percent of capital gains do you think are from a holding period of 25 years? Where would the inflation be from holding it for a grand total of a year and a day?MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:16 pmAnd don't forget the effect of inflation over the holding period. If you hold a stock for 25 years and then sell it, the amount of increase in value is partly due to inflation.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:49 pmI certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:32 pmI completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.
Yes, that's a huge issue! Although, you could consider that the dollars you're paying the taxes with are worth a lot less than the ones you used to buy the asset.MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:16 pmAnd don't forget the effect of inflation over the holding period. If you hold a stock for 25 years and then sell it, the amount of increase in value is partly due to inflation.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:49 pmI certainly see that point, but the counterpoint is that the money has already been taxed. In other words, the reason we don't have 25% (or whatever) more of a gain than we do is because we've already paid taxes.yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:32 pmI completely agree with you regarding your last sentence. If you and I (and others) are in the privileged position to be able to obtain capital gains and dividends then we can certainly afford to pay taxes on them just as people much less well off than us pay on earned income.
Capital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?WiseOne wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:00 pm$2.2 trillion for that one item? And mind you it's just one on a list of about 50. Wow, this guy is living someplace I've never been....GT wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:45 pmFrom the link:Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:26 pm Has anyone read Bernie's itemized program for his administration?
It can be found here...
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
All I can say is holy bleep.
"College for All and Cancel Student Debt
It will cost $2.2 trillion to make public colleges, universities and trade schools tuition-free and to cancel all student debt over the next decade. It is fully paid for by a modest tax on Wall Street speculation that will raise an estimated $2.4 trillion over ten years."
what is "Wall Street speculation" - would it be a tax on every trade?
It's his proposed tax on all stock/ETF transactions. He's pretending like it would only hit Wall Street traders, and not, say, the entire working population with 401Ks or IRAs, which are going to be hit with lower returns because of this. He's also proposed a wealth tax as well as making all capital gains and dividends taxed as ordinary income. These sources together would pay for, oh, maybe 3 or 4 of his 50 wish list items. No idea how he plans to pay for the rest - not just the items but all the unintended consequences, like colleges raising tuitions sky high because hey, the government is paying the tab, or the floods of people coming across the wide open border to claim all that free health care.
To be fair, I kinda think cap gains and dividends SHOULD be taxed as ordinary income...
Did you miss where WiseOne later pointed out that you are paying the taxes with equally inflated dollars?Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:13 pmCapital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?
That is an economic error.yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:23 pmDid you miss where WiseOne later pointed out that you are paying the taxes with equally inflated dollars?Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:13 pmCapital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?
Vinny
How does this fit in?Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:10 amThat is an economic error.yankees60 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:23 pmDid you miss where WiseOne later pointed out that you are paying the taxes with equally inflated dollars?Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:13 pmCapital gains are largely due to inflation. Still think they should be taxed as ordinary income?
Vinny
Let's say there is a 20% tax rate, and look at two very simple scenarios in which the real value of the asset does not change.
Scenario 1:
You buy an asset for $100.
There is no inflation.
You sell the asset for $100.
You have no nominal gain.
Tax: $0.
Result: You have $100 in real terms, which is the same wealth you had at the beginning.
Scenario 2:
You buy an asset for $100.
There is 100% inflation over the term of your ownership.
You sell the asset for $200.
You have a $100 nominal gain.
Tax: $20.
Result: You have $180 in inflated dollars, which is $90 in real terms, $10 less than you had at the beginning.
Of course the results are worse if the total inflation over your term of ownership is greater.
That's why governments love inflation.
Saving is better for the economy than spending, because saving allows capital formation.WiseOne wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2020 8:41 am Well, of course if you are in a real return of zero situation, you will end up losing out because of taxes. However, the idea is that your asset should have a positive real return, and that's the reason why you buy it (and why you took some risks doing it).
I get your overall point that taxes suck. But they also suck when applied to wages - and even worse, wages get hit with FICA. Even if capital gains were taxed at ordinary income rates, they would still have an advantage as they're FICA-exempt.
I think you'd have to argue the cause using the same line of reasoning that resulted in favorable tax treatment of investment income: it is fundamentally better for the economy for you to put investments into the market that earn you a return, than if you simply draw the same amount of money as wages. Lowering taxes on investment income was designed to encourage more investment. The thing is, though, that if people don't invest money they would presumably spend it - which is better yet for the economy. So from the government's point of view, I don't think that tax advantage makes sense.