Which camp?

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:21 pm

I just finished listening to this woman's presentation on her book: Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She concluded by saying you are either in her camp or the "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" camp.

When the latter book came out in the 80s I instantly rejected it and have never wavered from that.

Therefore I am in her camp.

Which are you?

Vinny
jacksonm2
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:54 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:21 pm
I just finished listening to this woman's presentation on her book: Gender and Our Brains: How New Neuroscience Explodes the Myths of the Male and Female Minds

She concluded by saying you are either in her camp or the "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus" camp.

When the latter book came out in the 80s I instantly rejected it and have never wavered from that.

Therefore I am in her camp.

Which are you?

Vinny
Except maybe for Sophie is there anybody here who knows enough about Neuroscience to feel qualified to join a "camp"?
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8684
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: next to emotional support peacock
Contact:

Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:12 pm

I reject her assertion that there are only the two camps, therefore I am not in her camp.
Therefore2 I am not necessarily in the other camp.
Under political pressure, Chick-Fil-A 🐓 chain cuts off the Salvation Army - wsj. :o
Vanguard treasury money market now yields 1.71%
compounded (last week, 1.72-3%)
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:27 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:12 pm
I reject her assertion that there are only the two camps, therefore I am not in her camp.
Therefore2 I am not necessarily in the other camp.
If you subscribe that basically the human race can be divided into males and females, do you believe:

1) Are their differences between the "male" and "female" brain (which seems to have been the predominant belief for decades if not centuries).
2) There are no differences.


Vinny
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8684
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: next to emotional support peacock
Contact:

Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:40 pm

You said “basically.” Let’s replace that with “the majority.” I have read that a little hormone surge can practically change a male to a female or vice versa in the womb. I think that was in ‘Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors’, a Sagan/Druyan book mentioned here at gyro, but i’m not sure.

It would be insane to reject the glaring reality that there are also people with gender dysphoria, transgender and would-be transgenders. (And, a subset of that subset is of course taking that to its illogical extreme and identifying as a catfish. Their problem, not mine).

Perhaps when my brother and my friends and I exchange stories about our wives, and they about us, it’s just confirmation bias. And to say that, hey, this woman thinks like a guy is the necessary converse of that.

I try not to prejudge people. That’s all that matters.
Under political pressure, Chick-Fil-A 🐓 chain cuts off the Salvation Army - wsj. :o
Vanguard treasury money market now yields 1.71%
compounded (last week, 1.72-3%)
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:45 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:40 pm
You said “basically.” Let’s replace that with “the majority.” I have read that a little hormone surge can practically change a male to a female or vice versa in the womb. I think that was in ‘Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors’, a Sagan/Druyan book mentioned here at gyro, but i’m not sure.

It would be insane to reject the glaring reality that there are also people with gender dysphoria, transgender and would-be transgenders. (And, a subset of that subset is of course taking that to its illogical extreme and identifying as a catfish. Their problem, not mine).

Perhaps when my brother and my friends and I exchange stories about our wives, and they about us, it’s just confirmation bias. And to say that, hey, this woman thinks like a guy is the necessary converse of that.

I try not to prejudge people. That’s all that matters.
And, my objection to the male / female difference is because I believe in your last two sentences.

And, a lot of what you describe in the prior paragraph is what happens to males and females brought up in a certain culture whereby each sex is encouraged (or discouraged) in certain things, e.g, men better at math than women.

Vinny
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8684
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: next to emotional support peacock
Contact:

Re: Which camp?

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:51 pm

Oh, I certainly don’t think men are better than women at math.

I do think it’s unfair for a trans woman (M ⇢ F) to compete with women in foot races, but of course that’s a body thing, not a brain thing. But if the bodies are different, maybe, just maybe, there are differences in the brain, caused by hormones.
Under political pressure, Chick-Fil-A 🐓 chain cuts off the Salvation Army - wsj. :o
Vanguard treasury money market now yields 1.71%
compounded (last week, 1.72-3%)
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1815
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:01 pm

Try The Male Brain and The Female Brain by Brizendine for a basic primer on the differences between male and female brains.
To die, to sleep
To sleep, perchance to dream; ay, there's the rub
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
jacksonm2
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:46 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by jacksonm2 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am

I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.

But there were 3 positive reviews to be found online in Slate, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. I've never thought of any of those entities as being go to sources for accurate science but they are quite famous for political advocacy.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2338
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by Xan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:49 am

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am
I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.
I assume you mean the book Vinny started this thread about, rather than the one Krieg just mentioned?

On the general topic, I think it would be strange to go in assuming that men's and women's brains are exactly the same. Why would anyone expect that?
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:18 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:01 pm
Try The Male Brain and The Female Brain by Brizendine for a basic primer on the differences between male and female brains.
First book is 12 years old while the second is 8 years old. Do they both stand up to the science of today?

Vinny
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 440
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm

Re: Which camp?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:23 am

jacksonm2 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:10 am
I observed that the book had 2 reviews on Amazon, one glowingly positive and the other negative.

But there were 3 positive reviews to be found online in Slate, The New York Times, and The Washington Post. I've never thought of any of those entities as being go to sources for accurate science but they are quite famous for political advocacy.
1) I saw her speak for what seemed to be an hour. The first part was her talking about the book while the latter was her taking audience questions. She seemed quite persuasive and credible. And, she pointed out that many long held beliefs have not been based in facts / science but in ideologies.

2) Yes only 2 reviews. The negative was a total of 15 words. Not a persuasive review. However, the "glowingly positive one" was clearly specific and I'm putting it all here as it far better describes her book than I ever could:

"For centuries there has been a bias toward describing the sex differences between men and women seen in social behavior as due to differences in the brain. Early research on the brain, as the author points out in the first section of the book, appeared to uphold this hypothesis. However, careful analysis of the research findings suggests that many of the studies were flawed, or biased toward generating the results they produced. I found these first chapters fascinating. It’s a cautionary tale that in order to understand the results we must look at methods, and samples. Too often the news trumpets the results with no understanding of how they were achieved.

The second half of the book looks at more modern research utilizing functional MRI and brain imaging techniques. The chapters on research on newborns are fascinating. What they’re finding is that many of the myths about babies and small children are not accurate. Boys are supposed to be more interested in mechanical gadgets and girls in dolls. The more researcher bias is removed from the experimental setup, the more this difference washes out.

I agree with the conclusion of the author that it would be a good idea to pay more attention to individual differences. When large data sets are used many interesting findings are washed out as outliers. I think this is a very promising area of research.

I highly recommend this book if you’re interested in sex differences. The question of nature vs nurture is well explored and suggests that environment plays a significant role in how boys and girls see each other and themselves. This has implications for education and the socialization of young and not so young children"

My conclusion is that the author of this book is an A+ author.

Vinny
Post Reply