Long Term Care Insurance

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MomTo2Boys
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Long Term Care Insurance

Post by MomTo2Boys » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:10 am

Hey, guys,

I have an option to purchase long term care insurance for myself and my husband via the federal employee long term care insurance plan. He and I are both in our upperish 40s.

I'm struggling with this decision. What do you guys think? A prudent thing to have? Yes/no? Thank you for any input/advice.
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ochotona
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ochotona » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:28 pm

I had a similar situation to yours at age 40, I did take the insurance, and was glad I did. I was able in 2015 to keep the policy when I was laid off, and the rates are still below what is be able to find if I were shopping anew right now at age 58. They were dirt cheap when I worked for that company... it didn't really matter that I started so young.

Questions

Is the policy portable like mine?
What are the premiums?
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by gull1 » Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:32 am

I have personal experience with policies and have experience in the care-providing business. I don't know what the ROI on some of these policies can be but it does seem like most of the LTCI have gone out of business, those that exist often make it very difficult to bring claims and to reimburse and the policies all have a fairy tale like view of the costs of care. The actuarials working on LTC policies did not account for $15/hour min wage and other skyrocketing costs. Nursing homes in much of the country are ~$10k per month and home care, if needed 24x7 and done thru an agency paying min wage, OT etc. are going to be north of that. And I think it will go up from here. Meanwhile the IRS is cracking down on 1099s and folks who may be working under the table. Personally I would try and avoid needing to pay for long term care in the US. Work on staying healthy and consider options you may have to provide care within the family or move to less expensive places. Just do not be under the impression that if you need a lot of care that LTCI will step in to cover all the costs. Some of the Medicare plans are going to start paying for some amount of home care but its unclear how this will pan out yet. The benefits I see on the newer plans vs the older vintage are actually going down. I used to see a lot of plans with 6 figure caps and paying $250+ a day. Newer plans pay a fraction of these amounts, from what I have seen.
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ochotona
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ochotona » Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:08 pm

gull1 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:32 am
I have personal experience with policies and have experience in the care-providing business. I don't know what the ROI on some of these policies can be but it does seem like most of the LTCI have gone out of business, those that exist often make it very difficult to bring claims and to reimburse and the policies all have a fairy tale like view of the costs of care. The actuarials working on LTC policies did not account for $15/hour min wage and other skyrocketing costs. Nursing homes in much of the country are ~$10k per month and home care, if needed 24x7 and done thru an agency paying min wage, OT etc. are going to be north of that. And I think it will go up from here. Meanwhile the IRS is cracking down on 1099s and folks who may be working under the table. Personally I would try and avoid needing to pay for long term care in the US. Work on staying healthy and consider options you may have to provide care within the family or move to less expensive places. Just do not be under the impression that if you need a lot of care that LTCI will step in to cover all the costs. Some of the Medicare plans are going to start paying for some amount of home care but its unclear how this will pan out yet. The benefits I see on the newer plans vs the older vintage are actually going down. I used to see a lot of plans with 6 figure caps and paying $250+ a day. Newer plans pay a fraction of these amounts, from what I have seen.
The LTC situation is totally depressing. As is College funding, Retirement savings in general, and Sickcare, er, Healthcare. Oh, but there's no inflation.
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by mathjak107 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:39 pm

gull1 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:32 am
I have personal experience with policies and have experience in the care-providing business. I don't know what the ROI on some of these policies can be but it does seem like most of the LTCI have gone out of business, those that exist often make it very difficult to bring claims and to reimburse and the policies all have a fairy tale like view of the costs of care. The actuarials working on LTC policies did not account for $15/hour min wage and other skyrocketing costs. Nursing homes in much of the country are ~$10k per month and home care, if needed 24x7 and done thru an agency paying min wage, OT etc. are going to be north of that. And I think it will go up from here. Meanwhile the IRS is cracking down on 1099s and folks who may be working under the table. Personally I would try and avoid needing to pay for long term care in the US. Work on staying healthy and consider options you may have to provide care within the family or move to less expensive places. Just do not be under the impression that if you need a lot of care that LTCI will step in to cover all the costs. Some of the Medicare plans are going to start paying for some amount of home care but its unclear how this will pan out yet. The benefits I see on the newer plans vs the older vintage are actually going down. I used to see a lot of plans with 6 figure caps and paying $250+ a day. Newer plans pay a fraction of these amounts, from what I have seen.
The stats were wrong about usage ...they underestimated the snf usage by a mile ....people like my dad who needed snf care were taken in by healthcare workers in their special set up homes and cared for them ...this type of care is popular in a lot of places and all these cared for this way fell off the grid ....

Today with both spouses having to work there is a lot less kids taking in a parent who needs full time care .

State partnership plans are also becoming popular ...we have one that protects all assets 100% , protects the stay at home spouses income once the 3 years insurance is up and then forwards all the bills to Medicaid where a special version with no look back and no spendown pays for things
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sophie
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by sophie » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:27 am

Here's an instructive example on long term care insurance...

My aunt and her husband are 81 (with advanced Alzheimer's) and 93 (with diabetes) respectively, definitely in need of long term care, and they have insurance - but can't use it.

First, my aunt has been randomly throwing papers into a nearby creek, one of which was the file on their long term care policy. My cousin (the DPOA holder) finally managed to track down the account info and got the fine print on the policy. It is a mess of exclusions and limitations. I'm not completely clear on the details, but despite my uncle's recent prolonged hospitalization & rehab stay followed by 24 hour home care for my aunt and then for both of them after he came home, the LTC company did not cover a dime. We could have arranged things to get a bit of coverage but it would have ended up costing more. The rehab center kept my uncle until his Medicare coverage ran out, which is kinda standard policy aimed at supporting their bottom line, so there was no more Medicare coverage left for home care.

My uncle finally threw the aides out of the house and has refused all further care. We're waiting for disaster to strike so we can get them into a nursing home where they belong. Hopefully we will see a bit of benefit from the LTC policy at that point. It will be a small fraction of the nursing home cost for my uncle only (not my aunt) starting after a waiting period of I think 3 months, and limited to 2 years. I think maybe a quarter of the actual cost.

Not a lot to show for the premiums my uncle has been paying on this policy for well over 50 years. His home was a much superior insurance policy.
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by stuper1 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:51 am

My LTC insurance is from CNA, which was available through my employer. Does anybody know anything good or bad about CNA specifically? My premiums seem reasonable to me, about $50 per month each for me and my wife ($100 total) for something like $400,000 of coverage each which increases at 3% per year.
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mathjak107
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by mathjak107 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:59 am

sophie wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:27 am
Here's an instructive example on long term care insurance...

My aunt and her husband are 81 (with advanced Alzheimer's) and 93 (with diabetes) respectively, definitely in need of long term care, and they have insurance - but can't use it.

First, my aunt has been randomly throwing papers into a nearby creek, one of which was the file on their long term care policy. My cousin (the DPOA holder) finally managed to track down the account info and got the fine print on the policy. It is a mess of exclusions and limitations. I'm not completely clear on the details, but despite my uncle's recent prolonged hospitalization & rehab stay followed by 24 hour home care for my aunt and then for both of them after he came home, the LTC company did not cover a dime. We could have arranged things to get a bit of coverage but it would have ended up costing more. The rehab center kept my uncle until his Medicare coverage ran out, which is kinda standard policy aimed at supporting their bottom line, so there was no more Medicare coverage left for home care.

My uncle finally threw the aides out of the house and has refused all further care. We're waiting for disaster to strike so we can get them into a nursing home where they belong. Hopefully we will see a bit of benefit from the LTC policy at that point. It will be a small fraction of the nursing home cost for my uncle only (not my aunt) starting after a waiting period of I think 3 months, and limited to 2 years. I think maybe a quarter of the actual cost.

Not a lot to show for the premiums my uncle has been paying on this policy for well over 50 years. His home was a much superior insurance policy.
the state partnership plans are very simple and straight forward ... they give you a list of requirements spelled out and when you can't do x-amount on your own they pay .... almost all states now offer these plans . new york has the best plan .. it provides 100% total asset and income protection . with one other exception most state partnerships only are dollar for a dollar plans . if they payout 300k then only 300k is protected as opposed to ny where if you opt for 100% asset protection everything is covered ...i would never just buy a conventional ltc plan today ....
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ochotona
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by ochotona » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:42 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:51 am
My LTC insurance is from CNA, which was available through my employer. Does anybody know anything good or bad about CNA specifically? My premiums seem reasonable to me, about $50 per month each for me and my wife ($100 total) for something like $400,000 of coverage each which increases at 3% per year.

KEEP IT !!!!!
stuper1
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Re: Long Term Care Insurance

Post by stuper1 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:44 pm

Thanks for the input. I plan to keep it. Sophie told me the same thing a while back.

However, I do wonder if anyone knows anything about CNA specifically in terms of their reputation and stability, preferably based on actual experience.
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