Gyroscopic Investing

It's conditional love though....I "must love" God or else he won't love me. And isn't it a bit oxymoronic that I am "required to love" someone? How can one be obligated to do something such as love which only has meaning when it is given in a noncompulsory manner? The Christian Gods love is abusive and psychologically traumatizing.

It's an absolute mystery to me how someone can find solace in this religion. Have you read Thomas Paines "The Age of Reason"? It does a proper job of putting the Bible in its place. I'm sorry I have to come across this way but as I see it only two options exist.....it's kind of like Pascal's wager in reverse.

1. The bible is correct, in which case it is so horrible a book that I would rather not go to a heaven ruled by such a God anyways

2. The bible is incorrect and I just rot in the earth.

doodle wrote:

TennPaGa wrote:

Desert wrote: Moda, I clipped out this text from a longer post from you, but this really affected me tonight.  I know where you're coming from, and I'm praying for you.  It took me SO long ... or maybe just a second or two in God's time, to be rescued.  Wish we could discuss this face to face over a 20 pound smoked brisket and a box of fine wine.   

Hey, you guys.  Make sure you give me a heads-up.  I'll bring the wine.

My parents love me unconditionally......yet an all loving God doesn't? I'm sorry, no amount of wine would ever get me to respect God as portrayed in the Bible and I'm willing to burn in hell if I'm wrong. Any God that wants me to kneel before him like a slave else he condemns me for eternity is an ego maniacal being that will never command my respect.

Doodle I hope someone screenshots this: +1

doodle wrote: It's conditional love though....I "must love" God or else he won't love me. And isn't it a bit oxymoronic that I am "required to love" someone? How can one be obligated to do something such as love which only has meaning when it is given in a noncompulsory manner? The Christian Gods love is abusive and psychologically traumatizing.

It's an absolute mystery to me how someone can find solace in this religion. Have you read Thomas Paines "The Age of Reason"? It does a proper job of putting the Bible in its place. I'm sorry I have to come across this way but as I see it only two options exist.....it's kind of like Pascal's wager in reverse.

1. The bible is correct, in which case it is so horrible a book that I would rather not go to a heaven ruled by such a God anyways

2. The bible is incorrect and I just rot in the earth.

1. It is so self-contradicting it can't be true so don't worry.

2. Go with this one, go with your gut here........

moda0306 wrote: It behooves me, if there is a God, to put in an effort to understand the process of becoming connected to him.

Moda, your atheism (hidden behind a veil of agnosticism) is your real "saving grace" so to speak. 

Sweet Jesus don't lose it. 

I'm starting to think that doodle and kshartle wear really nice snakeskin boots.  There is always hope they will switch to sandals for the sunset of their lives, you know, before they have dire need for asbestos full body suits that will not be available. 

It does us good to remember that Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days, and offered pretty much everything if he would only deny God; the antagonists on this forum offer only their mockery to God.  Jesus loves us so much that he gave up earthly fame, fortune, and even his life for a while, so that we could have eternal life.  Keep the big picture in mind.  This passage is also a good example of the power of God's Word, "Be gone, Satan" ... then the devil left him.

... Mountaineer

The Temptation of Jesus

4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.”? 4 But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
    but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”?
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’
and

“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
    lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”?
7 Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”? 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.”? 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,

“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
    and him only shall you serve.’”?
11 Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

Suggestion: If you have not read the previous Letters, posted earlier in this thread, I suggest you do so prior to reading subsequent Letters.  Each Letter, a short chapter in the book "What They Need to Hear" by Klemet Preus tends to build on prior material.  They begin with "Preface" in my August 6 post; the preface discusses the purpose of the book.

Letter 12 - The First Witness
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jnpfom0y9h5bj ... itness.pdf

Letter 13 - Who Else Tells Us About Jesus?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1qtsiqyqyurzo ... 0Us%3F.pdf

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote: I'm starting to think that doodle and kshartle wear really nice snakeskin boots. 

Judges 1:19

And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Hmmm....I guess all things aren't possible with God. 

Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


I know nothing makes me happier than smashing children and babies against rocks.........................

Kshartle wrote: Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


I know nothing makes me happier than smashing children and babies against rocks.........................

Key learnings for those who have ears to hear:  Satan is a master at quoting Scripture - he knows it very well and often tries to use it to cause doubt, similar to what he tried to do to Jesus in the desert temptation.  My prayer is that believers will not succumb to such false gods and doubts.  It is very important to take verses in context.  The verse kshartle quotes is during the Babylonian captivity.  A thorough understanding of Scripture and its purpose and a good study Bible are very helpful in thwarting Satan's arrows, even when he uses others to help him take things out of context and twist God's Word for evil purposes.

Here is the interpretation of the passage:  A bitter passage that is a horrific expression of the psalmist's craving for unrepentant Babylon to be utterly annihilated, with no new generation possible to restore its power.  That the conquering Medes would do this to Babylonian infants is specifically prophesied in Isiah 13:16. 

Overall comments on the whole of Psalm 137:  By abandoning God for false religions and the evil ways of the surrounding cultures, the people lost everything.  Now, in their exile, they appreciate what they threw away.  We, too, are exiles in the new Babylon - the world system with its abominations and its beast (Rev 18) - and must edure its temptations and tribulations.  We, too, know that sin brings regret, grief, self-loathing, and bitterness.  (Such emotions are signs of repentance.)  Yet we can also look for our deliverance, clinging to God's promises of redemption delivered by one wholly innocent, Jesus, God's own Child.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote:

Kshartle wrote: Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


I know nothing makes me happier than smashing children and babies against rocks.........................

Key learnings for those who have ears to hear:  Satan is a master at quoting Scripture - he knows it very well and often tries to use it to cause doubt, similar to what he tried to do to Jesus in the desert temptation.  My prayer is that believers will not succumb to such false gods and doubts.  It is very important to take verses in context.  The verse kshartle quotes is during the Babylonian captivity.  A thorough understanding of Scripture and its purpose and a good study Bible are very helpful in thwarting Satan's arrows, even when he uses others to help him take things out of context and twist God's Word for evil purposes.

Ummmm.......smashing children against rocks provides joy to the psalmist why again? Why is/was it a good thing?

It takes a tremendous amount of "faith" to make up an excuse for all the horrible attrocities promoted against God's children, and I mean children literraly.

I absolutely love the way that Thomas Paine tears into the Bible. The only modern day author that I have seen and read that could compare is Christopher Hitchens.

11.Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

12...but the Bible is such a book of lies and contradictions there is no knowing which part to believe or whether any... [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]


13.The NT, compared with the Old, is like a farce of one act... [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

14.That God cannot lie, is no advantage to your argument, because it is no proof that priests can not, or that the Bible does not. [The Life and Works of Thomas Paine, Vol. 9 p. 134]

15...we must be compelled to hold this doctrine to be false, and the old and new law called the Old and New Testament, to be impositions, fables and forgeries. [The Life and Works of Thomas Paine, Vol. 9 p. 282]

16.There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice..... [Thomas Paine]

17.Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication-- after that it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to ME, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

18.The story of the whale swallowing Jonah, though a whale is large enough to do it, borders greatly on the marvelous; but it would have approached nearer to the idea of a miracle if Jonah had swallowed the whale. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

19.Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice,i t renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

20.As to the book called the bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men. [Thomas Paine, writing to Andrew Dean August 15, 1806]

21.It is far better that we admitted a thousand devils to roam at large than that we permitted one such imposter and monster as Moses, Joshua, Samuel, and the Bible prophets, to come with the pretended word of God and have credit among us.

22.The continually progressive change to which the meaning of words is subject, the want of a universal language which renders translation necessary, the errors to which translations are again subject, the mistakes of copyists and printers, together with the possibility of willful alteration, are of themselves evidences that the human language, whether in speech or in print, cannot be the vehicle of the Word of God. The Word of God exists in something else. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

doodle,

You may wish to change your Signature line by Blaise Pascal.  I'm assuming you do know that among his multitude of talents, he was a Christian apologetics guy?  Perhaps something by the Diest Thomas Paine, or the atheist Christopher Hitchens would be more appropriate.   

Interesting tidbits about Paine:

His ideas reflected Enlightenment-era rhetoric of transnational human rights.  He has been called "a corsetmaker by trade, a journalist by profession, and a propagandist by inclination".

He became notorious because of his pamphlet The Age of Reason (1793–94), in which he advocated deism, promoted reason and freethinking, and argued against institutionalized religion in general and Christian doctrine in particular.

Only six people attended his funeral as he had been ostracized for his ridicule of Christianity.  I guess the unwashed masses came to their senses

http://issuesetc.org/2014/08/11/2-the-w ... rde-81114/

... Mountaineer

M,

I'm not saying God is a meany doo-doo head. I'm not saying he/it doesn't exist. I'm just saying this particular version (infalable, just, moral, loving) does not exist in the pages of the book that is held up as his word.

If God gave us reason then it was to allow us to understand the world of which he is a part of. If by using reason we must reject his word due to the contradictions.......then is he just efffing with us so he feels ok about torturing us in unspeakable horror for eternity?

I am sure you must doubt that's true. I don't expect you "convert" here, but I feel compelled to point that out to readers who might be on the fence. If you're only interested in God because you're afraid he'll burn you forever, take comfort in knowing that other parts of the Bible are clearly not true so likely that is wrong also.

Mountaineer wrote: doodle,

You may wish to change your Signature line by Blaise Pascal.  I'm assuming you do know that among his multitude of talents, he was a Christian apologetics guy?  Perhaps something by the Diest Thomas Paine, or the atheist Christopher Hitchens would be more appropriate. 

http://issuesetc.org/2014/08/11/2-the-w ... rde-81114/

... Mountaineer

Yes, kind of ironic...considering that I have taken Pascal's wager and turned it on its head.

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: It behooves me, if there is a God, to put in an effort to understand the process of becoming connected to him.

Moda, your atheism (hidden behind a veil of agnosticism) is your real "saving grace" so to speak. 

Sweet Jesus don't lose it.

Ha.  Well K I don't assume to know that there isn't a God. I think I owe it to myself and to an eventual God to do a little soul-searching.

But yeah... Given definitions I'm quite sure I'm agnostic.  Just an argumentative one.

Kind of like I operate most of my life under the premise of self-ownership, but still want you to prove it if you're going to use it as the tool for every question and claim how obvious it is .

moda0306 wrote: Kind of like I operate most of my life under the premise of self-ownership, but still want you to prove it if you're going to use it as the tool for every question and claim how obvious it is .

Ok headed back over there today. I'm experimenting with a new sleep cycle, polyphasic sleeping, whereby instead of sleeping for 8 hours in one fell swoop you take 6 - 30 minute naps instead. The idea is you'll train your body to go instantly to REM and you'll get the benefits of a full nights sleep in less than half the time.

This will give me extra time in the wee hours to determine the proper language. I started yesterday when I woke up at 5 AM. I've only slept about 2.5 hours since then and I feel just fine. I imagine I'll be hitting a wall soon. 

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: Kind of like I operate most of my life under the premise of self-ownership, but still want you to prove it if you're going to use it as the tool for every question and claim how obvious it is .

Ok headed back over there today. I'm experimenting with a new sleep cycle, polyphasic sleeping, whereby instead of sleeping for 8 hours in one fell swoop you take 6 - 30 minute naps instead. The idea is you'll train your body to go instantly to REM and you'll get the benefits of a full nights sleep in less than half the time.

This will give me extra time in the wee hours to determine the proper language. I started yesterday when I woke up at 5 AM. I've only slept about 2.5 hours since then and I feel just fine. I imagine I'll be hitting a wall soon. 

Im curious how this goes for you....Ive thought about trying it as well.

doodle wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: Kind of like I operate most of my life under the premise of self-ownership, but still want you to prove it if you're going to use it as the tool for every question and claim how obvious it is .

Ok headed back over there today. I'm experimenting with a new sleep cycle, polyphasic sleeping, whereby instead of sleeping for 8 hours in one fell swoop you take 6 - 30 minute naps instead. The idea is you'll train your body to go instantly to REM and you'll get the benefits of a full nights sleep in less than half the time.

This will give me extra time in the wee hours to determine the proper language. I started yesterday when I woke up at 5 AM. I've only slept about 2.5 hours since then and I feel just fine. I imagine I'll be hitting a wall soon. 

Im curious how this goes for you....Ive thought about trying it as well.

Going well so far. I've been keeping a log of each nap and a description of how I'm feeling. Maybe I'll start a thread. 

Kshartle wrote:
I'm experimenting with a new sleep cycle, polyphasic sleeping, whereby instead of sleeping for 8 hours in one fell swoop you take 6 - 30 minute naps instead. The idea is you'll train your body to go instantly to REM and you'll get the benefits of a full nights sleep in less than half the time.

Is it too much of a stretch to think REM means "Remember Exortations of Mountaineer"? 

Maybe if you have not hit the wall yet, you will have time to read this little diddy on God's Unfailing Promise.  Cheers, and pleasant dreams while you are in your polyphasic state.  By the way, have you ever seen the movie "Altered States"?  Beware the hair. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/or887jm53atwl ... romise.pdf

Blessings, and I am praying for you.

... Mountaineer
 

Desert wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: Kind of like I operate most of my life under the premise of self-ownership, but still want you to prove it if you're going to use it as the tool for every question and claim how obvious it is .

Ok headed back over there today. I'm experimenting with a new sleep cycle, polyphasic sleeping, whereby instead of sleeping for 8 hours in one fell swoop you take 6 - 30 minute naps instead. The idea is you'll train your body to go instantly to REM and you'll get the benefits of a full nights sleep in less than half the time.

This will give me extra time in the wee hours to determine the proper language. I started yesterday when I woke up at 5 AM. I've only slept about 2.5 hours since then and I feel just fine. I imagine I'll be hitting a wall soon.

  I was just about ready to tell you to get back over there and get that morality proof finished up.  At the pace you're going, it's starting to resemble a government program.

in that case I need to raise your taxes to fund it.

Kshartle wrote:

Desert wrote:

Kshartle wrote: Ok headed back over there today. I'm experimenting with a new sleep cycle, polyphasic sleeping, whereby instead of sleeping for 8 hours in one fell swoop you take 6 - 30 minute naps instead. The idea is you'll train your body to go instantly to REM and you'll get the benefits of a full nights sleep in less than half the time.

This will give me extra time in the wee hours to determine the proper language. I started yesterday when I woke up at 5 AM. I've only slept about 2.5 hours since then and I feel just fine. I imagine I'll be hitting a wall soon.

  I was just about ready to tell you to get back over there and get that morality proof finished up.  At the pace you're going, it's starting to resemble a government program.

in that case I need to raise your taxes to fund it.

You mean reading your posts hasn't been taxing enough?



JK

moda0306 wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

Desert wrote:   I was just about ready to tell you to get back over there and get that morality proof finished up.  At the pace you're going, it's starting to resemble a government program.

in that case I need to raise your taxes to fund it.

You mean reading your posts hasn't been taxing enough?



JK

I feel like the rate is not "progressive" enough!

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote:

Kshartle wrote: in that case I need to raise your taxes to fund it.

You mean reading your posts hasn't been taxing enough?



JK

I feel like the rate is not "progressive" enough!

Well, in terms of having to pay the reading-K's-facepalm-worth-post tax, I'm definitely not in the 47% of people on this board who don't pay anywhere near their fair-share!!

Figuring Out Religion - sounds like these folks have a good start.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... more-19616

Would it not be wonderful if all "religious" communities were like this one.  Five hundred residents, one policeman, no crime, no jail, friendly gracious people just making a living with what is available to them, Methodism before it got liberal.  An interesting read about relatively isolated life on the Chesapeake at Tangier Island.

... Mountaineer

doodle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: doodle,

You may wish to change your Signature line by Blaise Pascal.  I'm assuming you do know that among his multitude of talents, he was a Christian apologetics guy?  Perhaps something by the Diest Thomas Paine, or the atheist Christopher Hitchens would be more appropriate. 

http://issuesetc.org/2014/08/11/2-the-w ... rde-81114/

... Mountaineer

Yes, kind of ironic...considering that I have taken Pascal's wager and turned it on its head.

doodle,

This is an interesting article about atheism that you may have interest in reading - and I'm not being sarcastic.  It gives a brief summary of some atheism history.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/geneveith/ ... f-atheism/

Here is the intro, check the link for the full deal.

Atheists are always invoking science, but notice how often their arguments and rhetoric use political language.  God allegedly “oppresses”? human beings, taking away their “freedom.”?  They say that God is “immoral,”? that, in the words of John Lennon, if we imagine no religion, “the world would live as one.”?
In fact, as Nick Spencer shows in Politico, the origins of atheism in the West had little to do with the rise of science; rather, it grew out of radical political movements.

... Mountaineer