Libertarian Summer Camp

[Mdraf]

The Libertarian Party is a joke. It might as well not exist. There are many types of libertarians, but fundamentally, if you can avoid stereotyping libertarians as heartless land rapist republicans, you're going to find wide agreement with any objection you raise about the government subsidizing something, offering it favorable tax treatment,  protecting it from competition or anything else like that.

Back me up here, guys! Wouldn't other libertarian-minded folks here agree?

ditto

the absolute last thing i think of on those rare occasions i describe my beliefs using the word libertarian is "member of the libertarian party"

+1 I like the "libertarian-minded" label much better than Libertarian

[Libertarian666]

The Libertarian Party is a joke. It might as well not exist. There are many types of libertarians, but fundamentally, if you can avoid stereotyping libertarians as heartless land rapist republicans, you're going to find wide agreement with any objection you raise about the government subsidizing something, offering it favorable tax treatment,  protecting it from competition or anything else like that.

Back me up here, guys! Wouldn't other libertarian-minded folks here agree?

I'm on board.

[MediumTex]

When doodle talks about the kinds of people he doesn't like, I almost never feel like that person has any similarities to me.

I don't wear a top hat and I don't chomp a cigar.  I do not time my trips down the street in my car so that I hit the puddles right as the poor and downtrodden are walking by.  I do not travel by limousine and I own no sweat shops.

I'm just a guy who see a class of people in the world who only seem happy when they are telling other people what to do and how to live, and these people bother me.

I don't want to steal anything from anyone and I don't want anyone to steal anything from me.  If, however, I catch someone stealing my stuff and it seems like they might have a genuine need I will probably just give them some of my stuff because it makes me feel good to do things like that.  For the thieves of the world who do it out of a sense of entitlement and even sport, though, I have bad feelings and I don't have a sense of generosity.

When I begin to suspect that the person stealing from me out of a sense of entitlement is the same person who is telling me what to do and how to think, I begin to understand how Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine might have felt.

It's the way a person who likes to keep a tidy house might feel toward cockroaches.  It's not really anger or contempt, it's more like disgust.

[Libertarian666]

When doodle talks about the kinds of people he doesn't like, I almost never feel like that person has any similarities to me.

I don't wear a top hat and I don't chomp a cigar.  I do not time my trips down the street in my car so that I hit the puddles right as the poor and downtrodden are walking by.  I do not travel by limousine and I own no sweat shops.

I'm just a guy who see a class of people in the world who only seem happy when they are telling other people what to do and how to live, and these people bother me.

I don't want to steal anything from anyone and I don't want anyone to steal anything from me.  If, however, I catch someone stealing my stuff and it seems like they might have a genuine need I will probably just give them some of my stuff because it makes me feel good to do things like that.  For the thieves of the world who do it out of a sense of entitlement and even sport, though, I have bad feelings and I don't have a sense of generosity.

When I begin to suspect that the person stealing from me out of a sense of entitlement is the same person who is telling me what to do and how to think, I begin to understand how Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine might have felt.

It's the way a person who likes to keep a tidy house might feel toward cockroaches.  It's not really anger or contempt, it's more like disgust.

+1776

[doodle]

A couple things my liberty minded friends. 

If you find logical inconsistencies or contradictions within the platform of the party that has assumed the name of the philosophy that you choose the describe yourself by, then I would hope that you at least take the time to write them a letter....or maybe it would just be easier to call yourself something other than a libertarian...or define it more closely and maybe write your own platform??  Noam Chomsky for example constantly points out that the American Libertarian party is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum from him in terms of libertarianism. The American Libertarian party for example supports the government sponsored corporate model of capitalism whereas he thinks that model should be abolished in favor of worker directed production. (By the way, when I say government sponsored corporate capitalism I simply mean that the government grants rights to an entity other than an individual human, not that it involves itself in the marketplace)

The problem with debating a libertarian it seems is that it is impossible to get them to agree to a definition or description of how society should be organized. It is very vague to just say, "I believe in liberty!"

Moda and I have pointed out what we see as many logical inconsistencies of some of the philosophical underpinnings of libertarianism throughout this thread as well as in many others, but when push comes to shove I don't think that any of you support the outcomes that result when you follow those philosophies through a process of reductio ad absurdam.

That being the case, you are then not liberty minded at all. While you give lip service to liberty, you actually just seek to redefine liberty in a fashion where it is most beneficial to yourselves. The liberties that you find most attractive you exalt and the liberties that you don't care for you trample on...

[doodle]

This piece from the LP party platform sounds just like the stuff I hear on this board....sounds great, but its full of contradictions.

We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.

We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.

1. What about corporations that the omnipotent state creates and defends as individuals?

2. When you say "live in whatever manner I choose" what you really mean to say is to live in whatever manner I choose provided it fits with the manner that you have chosen for me, right? In other words, to give an example, my freedom to wander is restricted by your freedom to own property that is defended and enforced by the omnipotent state.

[notsheigetz]

Moda and I have pointed out what we see as many logical inconsistencies of some of the philosophical underpinnings of libertarianism throughout this thread as well as in many others, but when push comes to shove I don't think that any of you support the outcomes that result when you follow those philosophies through a process of reductio ad absurdam.

That being the case, you are then not liberty minded at all.

Ridiculous.

It reminded me of the thread about Clive below. If we really believe in the principles of the PP then we should be ready to convert our
gold into cash during a period of hyperinflation or else we are hypocrites, or so the reductio ad absurdam argument goes.

As Emerson said, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds".

[Pointedstick]

2. When you say "live in whatever manner I choose" what you really mean to say is to live in whatever manner I choose provided it fits with the manner that you have chosen for me, right? In other words, to give an example, my freedom to wander is restricted by your freedom to own property that is defended and enforced by the omnipotent state.

Now we're getting somewhere. In the interests of visibility and simplicity, I started another topic to address this point, which I think gets to the definition of freedom itself: http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/ot ... t-freedom/