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Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:18 am
by moda0306
AgAuMoney wrote:
moda0306 wrote: I love that graph.  It shows how much more damaging deflation is than inflation in terms of a nations ability to create and market wealth & production.
That graph is meaningless garbage.

Of course GDP goes down during deflation.  GDP is a measure of prices!  That doesn't mean that productivity declined.  You have no idea.

Now if you see GDP go down during inflation you KNOW there is a real problem.

Deflation is in general very good for everyone except debtors.  I bet you like the past 50 years of deflation in electronics, or even just the last 10 years deflation in HD flat-panel televisions.
The graph shows real GDP, so no, it's not meaningless garbage.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:24 am
by moda0306
AgAuMoney wrote:
RuralEngineer wrote: Is it just me, or is that article junk?
Total junk.

The guy has zero grasp of monetary history.

I suspect he was writing articles in about 1999 telling us that stocks with P.E. of 100, 200, or even infinite (because they had no earnings, but would soon) were great investments.  Forget the old days, this is the information age, baby!
Gold bugs think they have such a mighty grasp on money, but their grasp on money and economics is similar the the pope's grasp on history... Cullen Roche is extremely smart on the subject of money and Econ.  I've learned far more about money from him and his co-bloggers than I ever thought possible. 

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:59 am
by MachineGhost
moda0306 wrote: Gold bugs think they have such a mighty grasp on money, but their grasp on money and economics is similar the the pope's grasp on history... Cullen Roche is extremely smart on the subject of money and Econ.  I've learned far more about money from him and his co-bloggers than I ever thought possible.
As a former gold bug, I can attest to that.  They have an axiomatic view of history that goes to support their anti-government bias.

There's nothing magical about gold, wampum or seashells.  Money can be whatever it is.  What will really work where the various gold standards have failed is constitutional or legal limitations on government.  Ideally, the government should be put out of the business of determining what money is, but failing that, the government should be restricted from being able to borrow money so it does not get into situations of indebtedness it can't ever hope to pay off.  That is what really causes governments to fail, not fiat per se.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:04 am
by doodle
I'm confused about debt. If our productive economy is capable of producing a certain quantity of goods, why is it necessary for us to go into debt to purchase what we are able to produce? If during our expansionary boom times when people leveraged up, the productive economy was able to keep pace and produce enough to keep inflation at bay, is that fact that people had to take on debt to buy things a result of not having a large enough base money supply? This is the part that I'm stuck on...

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:26 pm
by Gumby
Debt is money. We have a debt-based/credit-based monetary system. All our money — except coins and the legacy gold on the Fed's balance sheet — comes from public debt or private credit. The only way to create new money is by either minting coins or increasing the public debt or issuing private credit.

However, private credit makes up the overwhelming majority of the money supply. On the other hand, the public debt is really a risk free savings instrument for the private sector.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:47 pm
by AgAuMoney
Pointedstick wrote:
AgAuMoney wrote: A "gold standard" isn't just gold-backed paper.

A "gold standard" says you can return that paper to the issuer for a guaranteed amount of gold.
Isn't that just another government promise? How is the promise of redeemability any more trustworthy than the promise of continued value that backs a fiat currency?
It is only as trustworthy as it lasts.  If they break it, they have abandoned the gold standard.

Edit:  That was really unclear, sorry.  The key is that the gold exchange means the extent of your reliance is gov't's financial promise is limited and the out is as simple as going to your nearest bank and you know what it will cost you unless you wait until the collapse of the system.  With fiat your out is of unknown expense and convenience and most likely the gov't will punish you for wanting out even if the system is apparently functioning 100% normal.  (e.g. taxes on the gains you make even if you lose to devaluing currency)

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:48 pm
by AgAuMoney
moda0306 wrote:
AgAuMoney wrote: The guy has zero grasp of monetary history.

I suspect he was writing articles in about 1999 telling us that stocks with P.E. of 100, 200, or even infinite (because they had no earnings, but would soon) were great investments.
Cullen Roche is extremely smart on the subject of money and Econ.  I've learned far more about money from him and his co-bloggers than I ever thought possible.
Obviously NOT!

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:16 pm
by Gumby
AgAuMoney wrote:
Gumby wrote:
But we can prove that gold-backed currency fails when a government fails.
No you can't.  You can only prove that gov't promises fail.  The paper, fiat, failed.  Keep your savings in the gold coins, keep paper in your pocket.  Your money will be fine when the gov't fails.
If it makes you feel better to know that the minuscule amount of gold coins that composes a nation's gold-backed currency would still be worth something, by all means, go ahead. In reality, most people don't save like Scrooge McDuck with a bathtub full of gold (even though, it might be smart to do so). Most people keep their savings in a bank or invested in various entities. The overwhelming majority of a nation's gold would be locked away in a vault somewhere that nobody could get to. So, the nation's currency would be worthless except for a few remaining coins in circulation.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:37 pm
by craigr
Slotine wrote:As a system of currency, the gold exchange standard is probably the weakest on a macro level - usually not because of its own failings, but because of its inability to respond to the failings of those in power.

How exactly does a pure fiat system protect you any better than from the failings of those in power? It doesn't. It makes it worse. At least gold held off the barbarians for a while before the gates were finally breached.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:03 pm
by Pointedstick
craigr wrote: How exactly does a pure fiat system protect you any better than from the failings of those in power? It doesn't. It makes it worse. At least gold held off the barbarians for a while before the gates were finally breached.
I don't think anybody is arguing that fiat protects you any better. The point of contention is in fact whether a gold standard protects you any better. I don't see how "gold held off the barbarians for a while". From my perspective, governments on a gold standard quickly and easily suspended it or discarded it entirely whenever they wished to engage in any activity it was supposed to prevent them from doing (e.g. massive borrowing to finance war). How did it hinder governments when they possessed the power to effortlessly sweep it aside whenever they wished--a power they all repeatedly took advantage of before they finally did away with the pretense entirely?

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:06 pm
by craigr
Pointedstick wrote:
craigr wrote: How exactly does a pure fiat system protect you any better than from the failings of those in power? It doesn't. It makes it worse. At least gold held off the barbarians for a while before the gates were finally breached.
I don't think anybody is arguing that fiat protects you any better. The point of contention is in fact whether a gold standard protects you any better. I don't see how "gold held off the barbarians for a while". From my perspective, governments on a gold standard quickly and easily suspended it or discarded it entirely whenever they wished to engage in any activity it was supposed to prevent them from doing (e.g. massive borrowing to finance war). How did it hinder governments when they possessed the power to effortlessly sweep it aside whenever they wished--a power they all repeatedly took advantage of before they finally did away with the pretense entirely?
Let me understand the argument then:

1) People die in car crashes.
2) Seat belts don't always save them.
3) Therefore, seat belts don't work so we should just get rid of them.

Is that it? ;)

In other words, because something that has some good attributes doesn't work 100% of the time, we should just not use it all.

I deal with this all the time in the computer security world actually. You get these layers of defense and someone will say that "Well I can defeat that!"

And I guess that's true. But when I layer on 100 pieces of defense you have a much tougher time accomplishing your goal.

Gold is just another layer of defense. It's not perfect. But it's also not worth throwing out just because pols can undermine it.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:11 pm
by Pointedstick
Almost.

1) People die in car crashes.
2) Seat belts made of tissue paper have never saved them.
3) Therefore, seat belts made of tissue paper don't work so we should just get rid of them, or preferably replace them with seat belts made out of something that actually does save people.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:12 pm
by Gumby
craigr wrote:
Slotine wrote:As a system of currency, the gold exchange standard is probably the weakest on a macro level - usually not because of its own failings, but because of its inability to respond to the failings of those in power.

How exactly does a pure fiat system protect you any better than from the failings of those in power?
Craig... We are talking about MACRO here, but either you don't fully grasp it (which is fine, feel free to ask us questions) or you don't want to discuss it. You keep talking about the safety of physical coins, but you are preaching to the choir since we ALL own gold here for the safety of physical.

The reason why fiat is better on a MACRO level was explained by Cullen Roche and Einstein here...
Cullen Roche wrote:Because nations were required to have specific amounts of gold there was generally an imbalance in the global economy due to trade imbalances.  Trade surplus nations were hoarders of gold while trade deficit nations were generally in shortage.  If you were unable to mine or obtain the gold thru other measures your trade deficit put you at a persistent and inherent risk of recession without a reasonable ability to defend your citizenry from depression.  Einstein described the inherent weakness in this monetary system:
Albert Einstein wrote:“The gold standard has, in my opinion, the serious disadvantage that a shortage in the supply of gold automatically leads to a contraction of credit and also of the amount of currency in circulation, to which contraction prices and wages cannot adjust themselves sufficiently quickly.”?
In essence, trade deficit nations (as we see in Europe today) were forced to overcome their trade deficit by counteracting it with high budget deficits.  The sectoral balances must net to zero so a nation which attempts to run high trade deficits cannot also run budget surpluses without experiencing economic contraction.  As we’ve seen in the sectoral balances approach, this is an accounting identity and not opinion.  So, there is an inherent flaw in a monetary system which lacks the flexibility to respond to these imbalances.

This is apparent in Europe today where trade deficit nations have been largely coerced into profligacy with no real ability to defend themselves from the inevitable recession.  Not surprisingly, Germany, the trade surplus nation in the region is booming.  In a floating exchange rate system with monetary sovereignty the periphery nations would simply devalue their currencies and natural market forces would help to remedy the trade imbalances.  Germany’s currency would rise which would make German manufactured goods less attractive, the periphery nations would experience currency devaluation and higher trade.  Over time their economies would stabilize and recover.  This, of course, was not an option under the gold standard and is not an option in modern day Europe.  Hence, the persistent weakness across the region’s periphery nations.

The gold standard is not a viable monetary system.  The reasons why it failed are simple to understand once one sees the natural flaws that the sectoral balances approach exposes.


Source: PragCap: Einstein On The Inherent Flaws In The Gold Standard

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:30 pm
by craigr
Gumby wrote:
craigr wrote:
Slotine wrote:As a system of currency, the gold exchange standard is probably the weakest on a macro level - usually not because of its own failings, but because of its inability to respond to the failings of those in power.

How exactly does a pure fiat system protect you any better than from the failings of those in power?
Craig... We are talking about MACRO here, but either you don't fully grasp it (which is fine, feel free to ask us questions) or you don't want to discuss it. You keep talking about the safety of physical coins, but you are preaching to the choir since we ALL own gold here for the safety of physical.
Guys, I get it. I do. Honestly I really really do. I just don't agree with a lot of what is being proposed. Deficits matter. They always have. Spending matters. Always has. Fiat systems always fail. Always. It has never once not been this way. You are arguing against history.

I will probably write out all my thoughts on this entire subject because I've spent a lot (too much) time looking at it and there are a ton of bad assumptions being made about financial history, culture, and how markets actually work.

You are not going to ward off the ghosts of history by saying "MACRO" whenever someone points out that not once has a fiat system survived long term. I don't care how it was being billed. And not once has it not resulted in catastrophic failure. It is true 100% of the time.
Albert Einstein wrote:“The gold standard has, in my opinion, the serious disadvantage that a shortage in the supply of gold automatically leads to a contraction of credit and also of the amount of currency in circulation, to which contraction prices and wages cannot adjust themselves sufficiently quickly.”?
The people that wrote the Constitution already knew this. They discussed these issues and had experience already with blowing up a paper money. They didn't like paper even with the "advantages" people said it would have. Jefferson and others discussed coin specie weight in excruciating detail. If they thought paper was a better idea (and it was discussed), they'd have done it:

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... 8_5s5.html
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... 8_5s3.html
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders ... 1_8_5.html

They also knew what printing money in the hands of a government led to. I think we're all aware of the limits of gold. It's just that: "It sucks less." than allowing people that shouldn't be able to print money to print money. It's not a macro issue. It's a lesser of evils issue. The people printing money just can't be trusted not to cause mischief. It has always been this way. The advantages of paper quickly succumb to the reality of humans in power.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:54 pm
by Gumby
craigr wrote: Jefferson and others discussed coin specie weight in excruciating detail. If they thought paper was a better idea (and it was discussed), they'd have done it.
It makes no difference. Jefferson's work was discarded, like litter on a highway, the moment the Macro flaws became relevant. The "safety" of gold ended up being nothing more than an illusion, except for a few gold coins that people were able to hold on to.

History shows us that EVERY gold-backed currency already failed. Over. History. Done. It was nice while it lasted.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:58 pm
by craigr
Pointedstick wrote: Almost.

1) People die in car crashes.
2) Seat belts made of tissue paper have never saved them.
3) Therefore, seat belts made of tissue paper don't work so we should just get rid of them, or preferably replace them with seat belts made out of something that actually does save people.
How in the world does paper money save someone over metallic standards where someone at least has a chance to obtain and hold physical specie?

How is what you're proposing an improvement? You go from at least a fighting chance to no-chance-in-hell paper only system.

There was an unwritten rule in the start-ups where I worked:

You are allowed to complain, but you have to offer a better solution.

So I hear the complaining. But I sure don't see how paper only fiat is a better idea.

And we haven't even talked about about the massive credit-bubbles caused by the paper pushers either. Egads. The tip of the iceberg has only been explored.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:05 pm
by Pointedstick
Oh, I thought we were talking about it from the perspective of restraining government. From the perspective of being an individual, then yes, being able to withdraw specie as long as the government keep the convertibility promise is a nice perk. But I have to point out that today under a fiat currency we still have the ability to hold precious metals, and in fact, precious metals are now a real, functioning market rather than a centrally-planned government price floor and ceiling (otherwise known as the gold standard :) ).

I'd be happy to propose my many thoughts on the subject of restraining government, but I'm afraid they don't start with the currency, so I will admit that I have no better idea than 100% pure physical precious metal coinage for how to devise a workable monetary system that constrains government.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:52 pm
by Gumby
The answer is to allow the private sector to control (most of) the money supply.

We live in a credit based monetary system, so most of our money supply doesn't even come from the government "printing money". The overwhelming majority of our money supply is private credit from the private sector...
Cullen Roche wrote:Fiat money is not perfect by any means.  And if the government is allowed to corrupt it then the system will surely fail.  But the power of the American system lies not in fiat, but in the fact that the people determine the government thereby determining whether the government is corrupt.  And more importantly, it is the people who ultimately determine the value of the currency via their ability to produce output that makes this tool of exchange valuable in the first place.  This is why it’s so important to actually understand the market based design of our monetary system.  The quantity of money is not determined by the central bank or by the government (or at least only very loosely).  It is primarily determined by the market place via the quantity of loans that are made based on the demand for credit (we reside in a credit based money system where almost all money exists in the form of bank deposits that result from loans issued by private banks on a demand basis).  If anything, it is the market that determines the quantity of money in the US economy via the private banking system and competitive market based system for loan issuance.

In the right type of system, fiat money is perfectly synonymous with freedom.


Source: http://pragcap.com/the-gold-standard-is ... th-freedom
Of course, in the wrong type of system, fiat money is a disaster.  :-\

Now, obviously there are BIG problems with this credit-based system (credit bubbles, instability, indebtedness, exponential monetary expansion, etc.) but there are also some great benefits as well (liquidity for entrepreneurs, market-based determination of credit worthiness, etc.)

No system is perfect (fiat or gold), but history shows us that gold hasn't provided any restraint for governments in the long run. ALL governments end up moving to fiat eventually. So, we might as well learn how to make fiat work as best as possible and hold physical gold nuggets for if/when it doesn't.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:02 am
by moda0306
AgAuMoney wrote:
moda0306 wrote:
AgAuMoney wrote: The guy has zero grasp of monetary history.

I suspect he was writing articles in about 1999 telling us that stocks with P.E. of 100, 200, or even infinite (because they had no earnings, but would soon) were great investments.
Cullen Roche is extremely smart on the subject of money and Econ.  I've learned far more about money from him and his co-bloggers than I ever thought possible.
Obviously NOT!
Umm... Touche?

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:15 am
by AgAuMoney
Gumby wrote: It makes no difference. Jefferson's work was discarded, like litter on a highway, the moment the Macro flaws became relevant. The "safety" of gold ended up being nothing more than an illusion, except for a few gold coins that people were able to hold on to.

History shows us that EVERY gold-backed currency already failed. Over. History. Done. It was nice while it lasted.
That's utter and complete Keynesian falderal.

And the reason why Keynesians like it:
John Maynard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920 wrote: By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens.
ibid wrote: There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million can diagnose.
V.I. Lenin wrote: The way to crush the bourgeois is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.
Ludwig von Mises, 1952 wrote: The eminence of the gold standard consists in the fact that it makes the determination of the monetary unit's purchasing power independent of the measures of governments. It wrests from the hands of the "economic tsars" their most redoubtable instrument. It makes it impossible for them to inflate. This is why the gold standard is furiously attacked by all those who expect that they will be benefited by bounties from the seemingly inexhaustible government purse.

Gold puts the brakes on gov't.  Sure, they'll eventually escape that if the people let them, but in the interim it's better than nothing.  And paper is nothing.

Alexander Hamilton wrote: The emitting of paper money is wisely prohibited to the State Governments, and the spirit of the prohibition ought not to be disregarded by the United States' Government.
Thomas Jefferson, to Josephus B. Stuart, 1817 wrote: That paper money has some advantages is admitted. But that its abuses also are inevitable and, by breaking up the measure of value, makes a lottery of all private property, cannot be denied.
Malcolm Forbes wrote: Why then, is gold the unmentionable, four letter word of economics? The Answer is threefold: A misunderstanding of the role of money; a misreading of history, and finally, a visceral revulsion to the notion that a metal can do a better job of guiding monetary policy than a gaggle of finance ministers, central bankers, and well degreed economists.
Pres Charles de Gaulle wrote: There can be no other criterion, no other standard, than gold -- gold that never changes, that can be shaped into ingots, bars, coins...that has no nationality and that is eternally and universally accepted as the ultimate fiduciary value par excellence.
Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom, 1966 wrote: In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation... This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.
Alan Greenspan, 1999 wrote: Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world. ...  Fiat money, in extremis, is accepted by nobody. Gold is always accepted.
Alan Greenspan, 2007 wrote: There are numbers of us, myself included, who strongly believe that we did very well in the 1870 to 1914 period with an international gold standard.
Tim Harford, NPR Planet Money, 20 May 2011 wrote: Bubbles should be defined in terms of fundamental values...  it's just not clear what the fundamental value of gold is. It's worth something because people have always thought it's worth something. And that's really weird, because what it tells you is gold is in a 4,000-year-old bubble.
Joseph Schumpeter, 1883-1950 wrote: [The gold standard] is extremely sensitive to government expenditure and even to attitudes or policies that do not involve expenditures directly, for example, to foreign policy, to certain policies of taxation, and, in general to precisely all those policies that violate the principles of economic liberalism. This is the reason why gold is so unpopular now and also why it was so popular in the bourgeois era. It imposes restrictions upon governments or bureaucracies that are much more powerful than is parliamentary criticism. It is both the badge and the guarantee of bourgeois freedom -- of freedom not simply of the bourgeois /interest/, but of freedom in the bourgeois sense.
Wall Street Journal editorial, pg14, 7 Jun 1965 wrote: The purchasing power of that famous paper currency [dollar] has itself been steadily eroded by the selfsame Government in its pursuit of inflationary policies for more than 30 years. Given that bias, it is not surprising that our money is being more and more COMPLETELY DIVORCED FROM BOTH GOLD AND SILVER. The trend should give rise to something besides nostalgia. The wholesale expunging of silver stands as one more symbol of the Federal progression towards fiat money, no matter how many silver linings the Government professes to see.
Daniel Webster wrote: Of all the contrivances for cheating the laboring classes of mankind, none has been more effective than that which deludes them with paper money.
ibid wrote: We have suffered more from this cause [paper money] than from every other cause or calamity. It has killed more men, pervaded and corrupted the choicest interests of our country more, and done more injustice than even the arms and artifices of our enemy.
Walter E Spahr, NYU economist, The People's Pottage, 1953 wrote: So long as a government has the power over a people that is provided by an irredeemable currency, all efforts to stop a government disposed to lead a people into socialism tend to be, and probably will be futile.
ibid wrote: The evidence seems overwhelming that a defender of irredeemable currency is, wittingly or unwittingly, an advocate of socialism or of government dictatorship.
Kenneth Parsons, aka Johnny silver Bear, 2004 wrote: During the first half of the 20th century, each of four world leaders did the exact same thing within ninety days of their ascension to power. Each made it illegal for the citizens of their respective countries to own gold. Those leaders were: Mao, Stalin, Hitler, and Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Ezra Taft Benson; former Secretary of Agriculture; The Proper Role of Government; 1968 wrote: I believe in honest money, the gold and silver coinage of the Constitution, and a circulating medium convertible into such money without loss. I regard it as flagrant violation of the explicit provisions of the Constitution for the Federal Government to make it a criminal offense to use gold or silver coin as legal tender or to use irredeemable paper money.
George Bernard Shaw, avowed socialist wrote: You have to choose between trusting the natural stability of gold and the honesty and intelligence of members of the government. With due respect for these gentlemen, I advise you, as long as the capitalist system lasts, to vote for gold.

Gold and silver are quite likely the worst currencies possible, except for all the others already tried.

So I'm going to believe these fine folks and similar learned opinions based on thousands of years of history instead of Keynes' disciples over the past 80 years or any Gumby distortion of it.  Thanks anyway, but I have to take a break from this insanity.  I'm out.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:29 am
by moda0306
Alan Greenspan is wrong, as are most of the other contributors to AgAu's post

The way to protect your savings from inflation is to actually hold gold or other real assets.  Individual ownership of real assets and gold is a much more efficient AND effective way of insuring against debasement than having the government try to link our currency to a metal often mined and controlled by foreign dictators. 

Further, since we have a sovereign fiat currency, the positive real interest the government rewarded savers with for two decades should show that even the debasement outcry is a bit of a myth.  People could take zero risk with T-Bills and still beat inflation handily from 1981-2001 abouts.

The government is in charge of defending, recognizing, recording and enforcing the very private property gold bugs and other conservatives rightly believe is a very important aspect of a free society.  They had the power for centuries to draft men into war.  The constitution grants the federal government the right to coin money.  Do we really need to act like the feds managing money is some gross incompetant overreach of government?

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:29 am
by Gumby
AgAuMoney wrote:Gold puts the brakes on gov't.  Sure, they'll eventually escape that if the people let them, but in the interim it's better than nothing.  And paper is nothing.
Newsflash... Gold didn't last. Fail. Kaput. Done. Every country on the planet abandoned it. It didn't put the brakes on anything.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:02 pm
by MachineGhost
Gumby wrote: No system is perfect (fiat or gold), but history shows us that gold hasn't provided any restraint for governments in the long run. ALL governments end up moving to fiat eventually. So, we might as well learn how to make fiat work as best as possible and hold physical gold nuggets for if/when it doesn't.
Amen.  Gold is nothing but a barbarous relic.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:06 pm
by MachineGhost
moda0306 wrote: Further, since we have a sovereign fiat currency, the positive real interest the government rewarded savers with for two decades should show that even the debasement outcry is a bit of a myth.  People could take zero risk with T-Bills and still beat inflation handily from 1981-2001 abouts.
Speaking of that, the S&P 500 with dividends included has now underperformed T-Bills for 14 years.

Re: All Fiat Money Systems Fail, Right? Wrong.

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:07 pm
by frugal
https://distrify.com/films/2464

I've seen this documentary about FIAT MONEY.

Can you please comment FIAT money CRASH and what shall we do?

25% in GOLD as HBPP is enough?


tks