I think it’s time to move into crypto

[murphy_p_t]

You can get a lot more crypto for your Fiat today

[murphy_p_t]

I only ever have 1-2% of my assets in fiat, but something tells me fiat will always be around somewhere long after these cryptos have gone the way of the dodo. What are we up to now, 10,000 different crypto coins?

Now that sounds interesting. Only 1-2% in fiat?

No cash or bonds? Just gold and stocks? Or also crypto?

Gold, silver, platinum, and stocks. And a lil cash. Most stocks international or oil or mining. I still think gold and international stocks are undervalued so i keep buying. If they were overvalued by my metrics I'd consider some bonds but at these interest rates sheeesh.

What forms (coins, bars, pool acct, etf, etc) / storage options do you suggest? Or that you advise against.

[SomeDude]

I only ever have 1-2% of my assets in fiat, but something tells me fiat will always be around somewhere long after these cryptos have gone the way of the dodo. What are we up to now, 10,000 different crypto coins?

Now that sounds interesting. Only 1-2% in fiat?

No cash or bonds? Just gold and stocks? Or also crypto?

Gold, silver, platinum, and stocks. And a lil cash. Most stocks international or oil or mining. I still think gold and international stocks are undervalued so i keep buying. If they were overvalued by my metrics I'd consider some bonds but at these interest rates sheeesh.

What forms (coins, bars, pool acct, etf, etc) / storage options do you suggest? Or that you advise against.

100% physical and all shapes and sizes for silver up to 100 oz bars. If we get lucky and the price gets smashed again I'll buy a 1,000 oz bar.

Platinum is sovereign coins and swiss 1oz bars.

Gold is a few 1oz bars and tons of sovereign coins from all over. Mostly eagles and 1 oz but plenty of other stuff.

I have a thread on the storage topic i think. I'm definitely a fan of storing it yourself at home.

[Mountaineer]

I only ever have 1-2% of my assets in fiat, but something tells me fiat will always be around somewhere long after these cryptos have gone the way of the dodo. What are we up to now, 10,000 different crypto coins?

Now that sounds interesting. Only 1-2% in fiat?

No cash or bonds? Just gold and stocks? Or also crypto?

Gold, silver, platinum, and stocks. And a lil cash. Most stocks international or oil or mining. I still think gold and international stocks are undervalued so i keep buying. If they were overvalued by my metrics I'd consider some bonds but at these interest rates sheeesh.

What forms (coins, bars, pool acct, etf, etc) / storage options do you suggest? Or that you advise against.

100% physical and all shapes and sizes for silver up to 100 oz bars. If we get lucky and the price gets smashed again I'll buy a 1,000 oz bar.

Platinum is sovereign coins and swiss 1oz bars.

Gold is a few 1oz bars and tons of sovereign coins from all over. Mostly eagles and 1 oz but plenty of other stuff.

I have a thread on the storage topic i think. I'm definitely a fan of storing it yourself at home.

I sure hope no one knows or will determine where you live!

[I Shrugged]

I'm a fan of having some within reach, but some overseas too. Part of my disaster plan is to be able to flee across borders. Try doing that with a bunch of PMs.

Then there is the risk of crime. If by chance someone finds out you have 5-6-7 figures of PMs that are accessible, you might wake up in the middle of the night to 3 guys in ski masks pointing Glocks at you. Or at your spouse or child.

And if you tell any loved ones about your PMs, you've created risk. And if you don't, and you die, what happens to the PMs and your heirs?

[Hal]

Crypto diversification video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abhPP_DeRSc

[doodle]

Crypto diversification video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abhPP_DeRSc

Crypto doesn't protect you either...as someone pointing a gun at your head could very easily convince you to send funds to another address.

[doodle]

So as I have been playing around in the crypto space I am starting to be less and less impressed. Speeds are just not competitive with banking system...and it's wonkiness is terryfying at times. Sending substantial sums of money that doesn't arrive for a half hour with no one to call or recourse at all.

This older article in the guardian argues that the hype around block chain is misplaced.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2 ... ipe-dream

[I Shrugged]

So as I have been playing around in the crypto space I am starting to be less and less impressed. Speeds are just not competitive with banking system...and it's wonkiness is terryfying at times. Sending substantial sums of money that doesn't arrive for a half hour with no one to call or recourse at all.

This older article in the guardian argues that the hype around block chain is misplaced.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2 ... ipe-dream

I think the definition of fiat money is of an item or record that has no intrinsic value, and is commonly accepted as a means of payment.
Crypto has no intrinsic value. Whether it is accepted as a means of payment is definitely debatable. So at this point, it's not even good enough to be called fiat money!

I'm not anti-crypto. I'm just not on board yet.

[Smith1776]

The argument of an asset not having "intrinsic value" is very frequently cited as a rationale for not investing in an asset. It's a nuanced idea, but I also think it's too liberally applied.

I've seen gold being argued as having no intrinsic value because it doesn't produce cash flow. Cryptocurrencies have had the same argument applied. Even dollars apparently have no intrinsic value since they're created by fiat. I've even seen non-dividend paying stocks being argued as having no intrinsic value.

What does one really mean by intrinsic value though? This is bordering perilously towards the metaphysical, but not everyone agrees on the definition, so we frequently talk past each other. I think in many cases the question is irreconcilable because we don't all share the same financial value structure.

[Smith1776]

I think in many cases the question is irreconcilable because we don't all share the same financial value structure.

Objectively speaking though, I think that bitcoin having value in any sense of the word is more true than not true.

I agree.

[I Shrugged]

I can see that say a Bitcoin has intrinsic value because it takes a lot of energy to produce it. Just as it takes work to produce gold.

[Smith1776]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/06/investin ... index.html

El Salvador adopts Bitcoin as legal tender.

[boglerdude]

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency ... happening/

Ok, crypto solving a real problem. What's the US gov's incentive. They want everyone using dollars...but what about unfriendly regimes like Syria, will crypto destabilize those countries? Is dollar-pegged crypto in the US interest?

[Kriegsspiel]

LOL WHAT

The Justice Department said on Monday that it had recovered much of the ransom paid to hackers last month who shut down the computer systems of Colonial Pipeline, a critical pipeline operator.

The seizure on Monday marked a first-of-its-kind effort by a new Justice Department task force to hijack a cybercriminal group’s profits through a hack of its Bitcoin wallet. The Justice Department said that it had seized 63.7 Bitcoins, currently valued at about $2.3 million. (The value of a Bitcoin has dropped over the past month.)

“Earlier today, the Department of Justice has found and recaptured the majority of the ransom Colonial paid to the DarkSide network,” the deputy attorney general, Lisa O. Monaco, said at a news conference Monday.
link

[I Shrugged]

LOL WHAT

The Justice Department said on Monday that it had recovered much of the ransom paid to hackers last month who shut down the computer systems of Colonial Pipeline, a critical pipeline operator.

The seizure on Monday marked a first-of-its-kind effort by a new Justice Department task force to hijack a cybercriminal group’s profits through a hack of its Bitcoin wallet. The Justice Department said that it had seized 63.7 Bitcoins, currently valued at about $2.3 million. (The value of a Bitcoin has dropped over the past month.)

“Earlier today, the Department of Justice has found and recaptured the majority of the ransom Colonial paid to the DarkSide network,” the deputy attorney general, Lisa O. Monaco, said at a news conference Monday.
link

So this should show up in the block chain, right?

[flyingpylon]

LOL WHAT

The Justice Department said on Monday that it had recovered much of the ransom paid to hackers last month who shut down the computer systems of Colonial Pipeline, a critical pipeline operator.

The seizure on Monday marked a first-of-its-kind effort by a new Justice Department task force to hijack a cybercriminal group’s profits through a hack of its Bitcoin wallet. The Justice Department said that it had seized 63.7 Bitcoins, currently valued at about $2.3 million. (The value of a Bitcoin has dropped over the past month.)

“Earlier today, the Department of Justice has found and recaptured the majority of the ransom Colonial paid to the DarkSide network,” the deputy attorney general, Lisa O. Monaco, said at a news conference Monday.
link

Perhaps the whole thing was an inside job and/or false flag operation. Or it could just be an incredibly stupid move by people supposedly smart enough to know how to hack into a critical pipeline operator.

[I Shrugged]

I can see that say a Bitcoin has intrinsic value because it takes a lot of energy to produce it. Just as it takes work to produce gold.

Say all the gold in the world was mined and sold. Supply of gold only coming from people who choose to sell gold and vice versa. Does intrinsic value say that gold cannot have an arbitrary price because the market has to price it relative to competing goods and services?

For example, if the price of silver goes up and drives up silver jewelry and we make an assumption that people always will pay more for gold vs silver jewelry. There is a wide range of potential applications for gold that places a floor on price relative to other commodities.

Now if all bitcoin were mined, what can we compare it to? If it were used as payments we could compare it against the costs of alternatives but even if we assume bitcoin is a competitive form of payments (the coin itself perhaps not, but the blockchain can be), the cost for payment alternatives can quickly approach zero.

Bitcoin would have to have a globally recognized superiority over another commodity in order to have what might be called “intrinsic value”. I’m not sure it has that since it is positioned against gold and it’s possible gold is even a superior asset in some ways.

Am I missing anything that might give bitcoin that relative value?

I am not bothered by the intrinsic value or lack thereof. My original comment on it was just a joking reference.

The most interesting question to me is, what gives bitcoin its high value? Sure there is relative scarcity. But what is the unique selling proposition? It has to be the anonymity (admittedly using that term broadly so we don't have to go down the anonymous/pseudonymous hole). If bitcoin was just a way to use blockchain and the transaction parties were completely known to any government, I don't think people would be paying $36,000 for one. In other words, while the blockchain may be elegant, it's not adding value anywhere near what people are paying for crypto. Or so it seems to me. No one can say for certain why bitcoin's price is what it is, but that's my present belief.

[Kriegsspiel]

Perhaps the whole thing was an inside job and/or false flag operation. Or it could just be an incredibly stupid move by people supposedly smart enough to know how to hack into a critical pipeline operator.

What would the point of the false flag have been? As far as I can tell, this pipeline shutting down for a few days just shows how much we lost out when Biden cancelled Keystone XL.

[glennds]

I can see that say a Bitcoin has intrinsic value because it takes a lot of energy to produce it. Just as it takes work to produce gold.

Say all the gold in the world was mined and sold. Supply of gold only coming from people who choose to sell gold and vice versa. Does intrinsic value say that gold cannot have an arbitrary price because the market has to price it relative to competing goods and services?

For example, if the price of silver goes up and drives up silver jewelry and we make an assumption that people always will pay more for gold vs silver jewelry. There is a wide range of potential applications for gold that places a floor on price relative to other commodities.

Now if all bitcoin were mined, what can we compare it to? If it were used as payments we could compare it against the costs of alternatives but even if we assume bitcoin is a competitive form of payments (the coin itself perhaps not, but the blockchain can be), the cost for payment alternatives can quickly approach zero.

Bitcoin would have to have a globally recognized superiority over another commodity in order to have what might be called “intrinsic value”. I’m not sure it has that since it is positioned against gold and it’s possible gold is even a superior asset in some ways.

Am I missing anything that might give bitcoin that relative value?

I am not bothered by the intrinsic value or lack thereof. My original comment on it was just a joking reference.

The most interesting question to me is, what gives bitcoin its high value? Sure there is relative scarcity. But what is the unique selling proposition? It has to be the anonymity (admittedly using that term broadly so we don't have to go down the anonymous/pseudonymous hole). If bitcoin was just a way to use blockchain and the transaction parties were completely known to any government, I don't think people would be paying $36,000 for one. In other words, while the blockchain may be elegant, it's not adding value anywhere near what people are paying for crypto. Or so it seems to me. No one can say for certain why bitcoin's price is what it is, but that's my present belief.

It's just an new class of speculative asset. There is a list of marketing features. Anonymity is only one. There is the presumed (eventually) finite supply. It capitalizes on the ever present fear that the USD is on the verge of collapse. Right now, the risk of increased inflation is another feature. It is very appealing to those that live with a demarcation in their minds between that which is old and traditional, and that which is new and leading edge. I fail to see where the energy consumed in the mining process translates to stored value.

In the US, the IRS killed any prospect of being used as a currency or medium of exchange, when they deemed it property. Hence every transaction involving crypto will carry implied gain or loss.
At the end of the day, it really has no intrinsic value in the sense that you could consume. Or yield that it will generate. The limited supply makes it like a sophisticated version of a limited edition baseball card (or pick your collectible).
It's only worth what someone else will pay you for it. A speculative wager.

I suspect it will grow in popularity, especially in times of upward volatility where FOMO causes dogpiling. BTC and Ethereum have both survived their infancy, which is a good sign. A big risk in my mind would be if there were ever a time when the US government considered crypto a threat to its currency or the banking system. That happened in 1934 and FDR banned/confiscated gold, and the power of a crisis enabled him to do so. People say that will never happen again, but I'm not so quick to believe a leopard will change his spots.

My personal policy and advice to any friends who care to listen, is resist joining the crypto cults. Some of them are like religious zealots.
If you're an adventurous investor (gambler), don't put any more into it than you could truly afford to lose.

[glennds]

Bitcoin is also a network so you can code metadata to bitcoin transactions that can have real practical uses.

If I'm a bitcoin holder, how would I benefit from that?

[boglerdude]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comme ... _currency/

well, alright. I'll get ETH and a sprinkling of Monero, ALGO and Cardano.

Anyone got a coinbase referral link

[flyingpylon]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comme ... _currency/

well, alright. I'll get ETH and a sprinkling of Monero, ALGO and Cardano.

Anyone got a coinbase referral link

https://www.coinbase.com/join/plsr

[johnnywitt]

Crypto: a decentralized Ponzi Scheme

[whatchamacallit]

Crypto: a decentralized Ponzi Scheme

I figured it was more pyramid than ponzi since there isn't a single asset manager.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer ... yramid.asp

Pyramid schemes can be quite lucrative.