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Re: No Indictment in Eric Garner Chokehold Case for N.Y.P.D. Officer
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:11 pm
by Kriegsspiel
I'm a little bit more selfish than PS, I think. I'm afraid that eventually, when things like this are allowed to slide by, police will become incrementally more violent and indiscriminate. Especially where they do bad things to completely innocent people, because how can you defend/prevent that? I'm imagining a future where cops brutalize me, and are not held accountable (so, probably what black people believe they are experiencing right now).
So, I think that the precedents needs to be shifted now, towards the "holding police more accountable" end of the spectrum, away from the "well, they have a hard job and they used their best judgement but made a mistake that we're going to let slide."
Re: No Indictment in Eric Garner Chokehold Case for N.Y.P.D. Officer
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:47 am
by WiseOne
Pointedstick wrote:
MangoMan wrote:
While I think we all agree that the cops went overboard and there should have been consequences, I just don't get why you are trying to make this guy out to be less evil and worthless than he was. Plenty of poor trashy people are law-abiding citizens let alone have 30 year rap sheets, and the fact that most of his crimes were petty doesn't make him any less of a scourge. No, he wasn't a murderer, but he did commit at least 2 felonies. Did he deserve to die at the hands of overzealous police? Of course not. But let's not pretend he was in any way a contribution to society.
"Evil…" "worthless…" "scourge…" not a contributor to society… If I could hazard a guess, I would estimate that our different perceptions entirely hinge on how we see the victim. You appear to be of the school of thought that he was basically a worthless person whose death isn't really worthy of mustering any moral outrage. I totally see where you're coming from, but I can't feel the emotions you're feeling. We don't know anything else about this man. Maybe he was a wonderful husband and father. Unlike most black men, for example, he managed to stay married to his wife. People said he was a neighborhood peacemaker. Maybe that was true. Maybe he baked a darn good apple pie. I won't say that I know any of this, but I can't just make a value judgement that his life was worthless and his death is no great loss for humanity.
It's one thing when a person is killed in self-defense; we ignore all the possible good things about them because their killing was justified, however tragic. But when there is an unjustified killing--in other words, a crime--it seems totally inappropriate to me to go judging the victim to fish for reasons why his death isn't
really that bad. Unjustified killing is criminal killing. Even shady dudes with criminal records have a right to life unless they throw it away by attacking someone innocent. In this case, the person who did that was not Eric Garner but rather the police officers who arrested him.
Outstanding.
I also ignored Eric Garner's past, shady as it might be, because in light of the video evidence none of it is in any way relevant to the event.
It's quite likely that NYC's policy of essentially zero tolerance for minor street crimes is a major reason for the comparative safety of this city (cf PS's other thread about immigration & crime - it's mentioned in the referenced article). Because of that, I wouldn't want to see a wholesale shift away from that policy, and if part of it is to arrest people like Eric Garner based on suspicions that may turn out to be unfounded then so be it. I only hope the focus will be on the specific tactics used to subdue him. Clearly that was badly mishandled at best, and criminal at worst. The grand jury should have let that distinction be settled in open court.
Re: No Indictment in Eric Garner Chokehold Case for N.Y.P.D. Officer
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:28 pm
by Pointedstick
It is really, really interesting and depressing to me to contemplate the notion that hardball, brutal, rights-violating police tactics are all that have been effective in curtailing crime among members of the black underclass. It challenges several narratives that have been important to me.
Re: No Indictment in Eric Garner Chokehold Case for N.Y.P.D. Officer
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:31 pm
by dualstow
Pointedstick wrote:
It is really, really interesting and depressing to me to contemplate the notion that hardball, brutal, rights-violating police tactics are all that have been effective in curtailing crime among members of the black underclass. It challenges several narratives that have been important to me.
I think that the only good to come out of this is that police methods are being more closely examined. Looking at the facts, I don't blame George Zimmerman (almost forgot his name) for the death of Trayvon Marton. I don't blame Wilson for the death of Michael Brown. Panataleo apparently has 2 or 3 different suits & cases in his near future.
I can't agree with the stupid masses who hear a false witness explain that Michael Brown did nothing and then got shot while trying to surrender, and then decide to believe that. But, I get why they are already angry, and how this has been fomenting for decades. And, I know how lucky I am to "get" it from a comfortable distance.
So while there is nothing productive from demonizing some policemen who might very well be innocent, maybe it's not too late to change police tactics before they really do become as horrifying as we're making them out to be.
Re: No Indictment in Eric Garner Chokehold Case for N.Y.P.D. Officer
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:00 pm
by MachineGhost
WiseOne wrote:
It's quite likely that NYC's policy of essentially zero tolerance for minor street crimes is a major reason for the comparative safety of this city (cf PS's other thread about immigration & crime - it's mentioned in the referenced article). Because of that, I wouldn't want to see a wholesale shift away from that policy, and if part of it is to arrest people like Eric Garner based on suspicions that may turn out to be unfounded then so be it. I only hope the focus will be on the specific tactics used to subdue him. Clearly that was badly mishandled at best, and criminal at worst. The grand jury should have let that distinction be settled in open court.
I'm really worried a comparative study of NY to the other cities is a very slippery slope to ramp up fascist-style police tactics. There's no doubt it has been effective and criminal-prone blacks will receive the disproportionate brunt of it, but it seems to me to only be a matter of time before the Pig attitude spillsover into other communities. I would not be surprised at all if whites with "The Warrior Gene" are overwhelmingly police officers.