Gyroscopic Investing

Mountaineer wrote:

Desert wrote:
It's fascinating to me how the most "progressive" in our society are also the most barbarous.  I wonder if most defenders of abortion have done any study of the procedure at all?  I doubt that they have.  They fall in line with the progressive beliefs that the cool people hold, rarely questioning.  It makes it easier for me to see how genocides around the world have happened, and continue to happen.  We're not getting more civilized ... quite the opposite.  It's very sad.

I too wonder why the liberal/progressives who proclaim to be looking out for the downtrodden seem to be the ones preying on the weak of society, whether by abortion or making end of life suicide look acceptable to the gullible.  The progressive liberals seem to have encapsulated the worst of Nazism (e.g. eugenics, ethnic, homosexual, and special needs people cleansing),  and expanded the Arian racism that idolized blue-eyed blond perfection to include those who disagree with their ideology; look at the examples of that behavior on this board alone which in many ways represents the smartest and best society has to offer.  Sad and almost unbelievable.  Satan is indeed prowling around like a hungary lion.

... Mountaineer

moda0306 wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:

Desert wrote:
It's fascinating to me how the most "progressive" in our society are also the most barbarous.  I wonder if most defenders of abortion have done any study of the procedure at all?  I doubt that they have.  They fall in line with the progressive beliefs that the cool people hold, rarely questioning.  It makes it easier for me to see how genocides around the world have happened, and continue to happen.  We're not getting more civilized ... quite the opposite.  It's very sad.

I too wonder why the liberal/progressives who proclaim to be looking out for the downtrodden seem to be the ones preying on the weak of society, whether by abortion or making end of life suicide look acceptable to the gullible.  The progressive liberals seem to have encapsulated the worst of Nazism (e.g. eugenics, ethnic, homosexual, and special needs people cleansing),  and expanded the Arian racism that idolized blue-eyed blond perfection to include those who disagree with their ideology; look at the examples of that behavior on this board alone which in many ways represents the smartest and best society has to offer.  Sad and almost unbelievable.  Satan is indeed prowling around like a hungary lion.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer,

While I can definitely see the anti-abortion side of the argument, when it comes to someone wanting to end their life at the END of life, I'm going to have to completely disagree with you on how you've posed that.

First off, who is gullible?  Many people decide for themselves after seeing people in nursing homes that they don't want to put that burden on themselves & their family.  Many want the ability, but don't legally have it, to set up their end-of-life affairs in a certain way via their healthcare directive while they are still of sound enugh mind to set it up correctly. 

Why should the government be able to tell someone that they can't end their life in some of these old-age/alzheimers circumstances with dignity... I mean, the only reason these people would stay alive is because of the UNNATURAL influence of doctors and caretakers.  If we don't like suicide because it unnaturally ends life, what does Christianity have to say about doing a host of unnatural things to extend life into miserable areas of so-called existence?

MangoMan wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:

Desert wrote:
It's fascinating to me how the most "progressive" in our society are also the most barbarous.  I wonder if most defenders of abortion have done any study of the procedure at all?  I doubt that they have.  They fall in line with the progressive beliefs that the cool people hold, rarely questioning.  It makes it easier for me to see how genocides around the world have happened, and continue to happen.  We're not getting more civilized ... quite the opposite.  It's very sad.

I too wonder why the liberal/progressives who proclaim to be looking out for the downtrodden seem to be the ones preying on the weak of society, whether by abortion or making end of life suicide look acceptable to the gullible.  The progressive liberals seem to have encapsulated the worst of Nazism (e.g. eugenics, ethnic, homosexual, and special needs people cleansing),  and expanded the Arian racism that idolized blue-eyed blond perfection to include those who disagree with their ideology; look at the examples of that behavior on this board alone which in many ways represents the smartest and best society has to offer.  Sad and almost unbelievable.  Satan is indeed prowling around like a hungary lion.

... Mountaineer

I'm with Moda here.

I am not gullible; on the contrary, I would consider myself a skeptic. And I firmly believe in the right to assisted suicide for the terminally ill. It is their life, and their choice how to live it or end it. Plus they are a huge financial and emotional drain on society. Just because YOUR bible says it's a sin doesn't make it one. If you ever have to make that decision for yourself [and I certainly hope you do not] then it will be your choice and no one else's to die without any facilitation.

Desert wrote: Thanks for the thorough reply.  It's interesting that you mention execution right after abortion.

I think though, with your moral code, I'd expand a bit and kill the elderly.  They're a real drag on society.
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And what about retarded people?  The severely mentally disabled should be eliminated also. 

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The severely mentally disabled should be eliminated also. 

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

Is simply taking someone off of life-support and/or a feeding tube "killing them?"  Aren't we screwing with God's will quite a bit by trying to keep everyone alive as long as possible (a little hyperbole there, but not entirely unwarranted)?

Also, we have to remember that these conversations are often coupled with politics.  Do we want GOVERNMENT enforcing a given priority.  With assisted suicide, even if I was convinced that it would send me to hell, most of the debate is whether it should be LEGAL or not in our society.  And since government's power rests pretty squarely on the ability to do what God expressly told us not to do (steal and kill), I can't blame people for wanting to separate their moral beliefs with the enforcement arm of government.

To me, there is a HUGE gray area here.  Our medical/social system intervenes heavily when nature tries to end an old person's life... and then we judge people for wanting a quicker way out (that would have occurred anyway) had they not received said medicine/care.  So much of our lives consist at usurping what nature is trying to do to us (freeze us, starve us, dehydrate us, cook us, eat us, kill us via natural causes, etc).  How do we know those aren't all God's will, and by building a vast shelter infrastructure, a vast food infrastructure, a vast water-delivery infrastructure, air conditioning, weapons and medicine, we aren't spitting in the face of what God wants?

MangoMan wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: I would also add, based on looking at the data of who the victims are, abortion is one of the more blatant forms of racism ** that exists in this country today; truly a wolf in sheeps clothing and an example of the emperor has no clothes phenomenona.  The idea of

But the sad fact is they're screwed either way.  They're just less screwed by regulated and legal abortion than getting it done in a back alley by some greedy amateur.  At least right now we don't have to worry about another crime wave pending from all the fatherless, unwanted, minority children!

And as ridiculous as that sounds, if you don't believe that, read Freakonomics.

Libertarian666 wrote:

MangoMan wrote:

MachineGhost wrote: But the sad fact is they're screwed either way.  They're just less screwed by regulated and legal abortion than getting it done in a back alley by some greedy amateur.  At least right now we don't have to worry about another crime wave pending from all the fatherless, unwanted, minority children!

And as ridiculous as that sounds, if you don't believe that, read Freakonomics.

I haven't read Freakonomics but I'm familiar with that argument, and I think it makes a lot of sense.

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

Well if you can find where God informs us of these end-of-life matters in terms of what he thinks, I'd love to read it.  You seem to carry opinions of things and then when they get challenged, often defer to God, who oftentimes, even in Scripture, doesn't make it clear exactly what he wants from us when we get into the nitty-gritty details.

You made an overt claim that people who want certain end of life care are "gullible."  You seem to have very specific feelings on the matter that it would seem you wouldn't have to defer to God, who hasn't really laid out his thoughts on "pulling the plug on Grandpa" in Scripture.  If God hasn't spoken on a subject, even assuming we believe that the Bible is the 100% true Word of God, why defer to him?  We can guess what he would want, but that's about it.  We talk about our opinions all the time here... regarding all sorts of subjects... why when you get into a gray area do you shut down and say "why does it matter what I think... it only matters what God thinks?"  That sounds humble and all, but it's a pretty useless statement unless God has a way (or had a way) of informing us what is right/wrong abot keeping people alive at the end of life.  Someday medical technology might be able to keep human flesh alive FAR beyond its consciousness and health has died.  I would hope that the religious folks out there wouldn't look upon discussions of the moral implications of this to be either something that 1) earns terms like "gullible" and earns accusations of a disrespect for life, or 2) upon further debate, simply gets side stepped by saying "why does my opinion even matter?  Only God's matters." 

Does that mean you have no opinion on the matter?  If not, why call people "gullible?"  If so, then why not share it with us and have it critiqued.

And as a practical matter, I absolutely DON'T, in most states, have the right to simply "arrange my legal affairs accordingly."  I can't choose to end my life eary if I'm struck with cancer in many states.  People simply don't have that option.  In large part, this is due to religious folks that think life is so sacred as a matter of principle, that is in ALL cases morally reprehensible to let it go a little early.

So I really DO care what you think... cuz what YOU think aligns with those who vote yahoos into office that won't allow a change of policy towards end-of life decisions.  And these yahoos, IMO, are "gullible" followers of organized religion... usually the one their parents picked for them... or in some cases (Barack Obama), the one they thought would help their political/economic career.

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,

You made an overt claim that people who want certain end of life care are "gullible." 

I DO think said doctor is a murderer, but I myself am responsible, I think, for at least one abortion.

moda0306 wrote: Mountaineer,
..... what is right/wrong abot keeping people alive at the end of life.  ......

Desert wrote:
And in case you misunderstood my firing squad comment:  I'm not a huge fan of the death penalty.  I often lean dangerously left in the eyes of my Christian buddies (although I've recently discovered a whole band of Christians who aren't staunch Republicans).  I think the death penalty comes with huge risks, since it's been shown that the innocent have been executed in this country.  A small percentage perhaps, but still possible.  Anyway, I made comment regarding the firing squad because I think our search for a more humane death penalty has probably resulted in the opposite, with stories of botched electric chair procedures, and botched lethal injections.  It seems that we've ended up in a worse place that when firing squads were used. 

Desert wrote: Back on the general topic of death: I think we're all capable of Nazi-like actions.  I used to watch the documentaries and think about how twisted and horrible those Germans were.  A friend of mine from the past (a bit of a bleeding heart) would argue that Americans were just as bad in their treatment of the natives on this continent. 
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Left and Right, black and white, we're all capable of that sort of behavior.  And we're not growing out of it, as a human race.  We're not getting better, improving, or becoming more civilized.  At the end of the day, humans are sinful and they like to kill each other. 

I know that sounds depressing and defeatist, and I don't mean it that way.
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Pointedstick wrote: I think the most humane method of execution would probably be waiting until the to-be-executed was asleep, and then crushing him very quickly with a gigantic multi-ton hydraulic press. It'd be quick, painless, and without any apprehension, either, since he'd already be asleep. Of course this would probably look pretty gross. It seems to me that the more we try to visually sanitize the process of killing, the more brutal to the victim we actually make the process (e.g. electric chair, gas chamber, recent revelations about lethal injection).  Hanging and firing squad seem orders of magnitude more humane than our most recent methods.

MangoMan wrote:

mountaineer wrote: Does the term "humane death" strike anyone else as an oxymoron?

Not really. Does euthanasia of a terminal dog, cat or horse in pain strike you as inhumane? Aren't they God's creatures? Who are we as humans to play God and decide for our loving pet when enough is enough? Why is it any different for humans?

Pointedstick wrote: I think the most humane method of execution would probably be waiting until the to-be-executed was asleep, and then crushing him very quickly with a gigantic multi-ton hydraulic press.

MangoMan wrote:

mountaineer wrote: Does the term "humane death" strike anyone else as an oxymoron?

Not really. Does euthanasia of a terminal dog, cat or horse in pain strike you as inhumane? Aren't they God's creatures? Who are we as humans to play God and decide for our loving pet when enough is enough? Why is it any different for humans?

dualstow wrote:

MangoMan wrote:

mountaineer wrote: Does the term "humane death" strike anyone else as an oxymoron?

Not really. Does euthanasia of a terminal dog, cat or horse in pain strike you as inhumane? Aren't they God's creatures? Who are we as humans to play God and decide for our loving pet when enough is enough? Why is it any different for humans?

+1 There is humane treatment and inhumane treatment. And, there is humane execution, (morphine overdose), and inhumane (tearing someone's entrails out slowly).

dualstow wrote: I respectfully disagree, Mountaineer. (You and I are in the U.S., and with respect to other forum members, that's what I'm writing about when I say) we are in a secular state, not a theocracy, and some states have the deathy penalty. Once it is a forgone conclusion that there are going to be executions, I am glad that someone is trying to perform them humanely, all the horrible past mistakes notwithstanding.