Given "spending is irrelevant"/fiat money, why not give every poor person 30K?

[doodle]

Buddhism teaches this idea of "non-attachment"  which I'm trying to cultivate. I have to learn to remove myself from the argument and become more process oriented and less attached to the results of my actions. I can see in this discussion at times where I start to stray from this and get personally wrapped up in things. This is not to say that getting emotional is bad, but having those emotions affect your deeper calm is something to watch out for.

Sorry.....the connection between what I just wrote to the original subject of this thread is thinner than a human hair now. 

[Gumby]

Buddhism teaches this idea of "non-attachment"  which I'm trying to cultivate. I have to learn to remove myself from the argument and become more process oriented and less attached to the results of my actions. I can see in this discussion at times where I start to stray from this and get personally wrapped up in things. This is not to say that getting emotional is bad, but having those emotions affect your deeper calm is something to watch out for.

Sorry.....the connection between what I just wrote to the original subject of this thread is thinner than a human hair now. 

Well, it seems like you're sharing a real personal crisis of yours here on the forum. I feel you doodle, but if you're going to do that, you might want to start a new thread. Your problems with Western society really aren't about fiat money. Your issues are about how you don't believe you fit in Western society. Either way, you ought to start a new thread if you want to keep discussing it.

[Pointedstick]

doodle, I've found that you can't change the world by arguing with it. Paradoxically, the more you actively try, the more you're likely to engender defensiveness and entrench peoples' existing feelings. If you want to change the world, start by changing yourself. Be the change you wish to see. And then watch in quiet satisfaction as people come to you asking you to help them change themselves.

By way of example, I used to be very vocal about my support for gun rights, but I don't think I convinced a single person to join my cause through active argumentation. Eventually I settled down and gained confidence in my own beliefs and choices, and quietly enjoyed the pleasures and feelings of safety afforded by owning firearms. And soon enough, I found that quite a lot of people--even those who had argued against me in the past--started approaching me asking to go to a shooting range together or wanting advice on what their first gun should be.

Folks have to come around to radical new ways of thinking in their own way and on their own schedule. Don't try to push them through the door; instead, keep it open so they can start to peek through once they get curious, and make sure they like what they see by being the best representative of the positive effects of the change you wish to spread.

[MediumTex]

doodle, I've found that you can't change the world by arguing with it. Paradoxically, the more you actively try, the more you're likely to engender defensiveness and entrench peoples' existing feelings. If you want to change the world, start by changing yourself. Be the change you wish to see. And then watch in quiet satisfaction as people come to you asking you to help them change themselves.

By way of example, I used to be very vocal about my support for gun rights, but I don't think I convinced a single person to join my cause through active argumentation. Eventually I settled down and gained confidence in my own beliefs and choices, and quietly enjoyed the pleasures and feelings of safety afforded by owning firearms. And soon enough, I found that quite a lot of people--even those who had argued against me in the past--started approaching me asking to go to a shooting range together or wanting advice on what their first gun should be.

Folks have to come around to radical new ways of thinking in their own way and on their own schedule. Don't try to push them through the door; instead, keep it open so they can start to peek through once they get curious, and make sure they like what they see by being the best representative of the positive effects of the change you wish to spread.

If you want to persuade someone, often you must seduce them.

Effective seduction is subtle.

If you want to teach a mule to moonwalk, seduction will get you much farther than simply yelling at it.  People are like that as well.

[Benko]

this massive consumer monoculture we live in desperately needs some dissenting voices!!! :-)

Do you enjoy the act of dissent itself?  Is that one of your hobbies?

Your point is very well taken and you can use that to extricate YOURSELF from being a slave to some of the silliness of our society.  Use your awareness to improve YOUR SELF AND YOUR LOT.  This is a really important understanding that not a lot of people get.  Seeing societies silliness for what it is is really healthy.

On the other hand, TOTALLY FORGET, IGNORE AND DO NOT PUT ANY ENERGY INTO SHARING YOUR DISCOVERIES WITH OTHERS (unless you are sure they are open to it). 

MT makes a valid point about HOW to try to change other people's mind, but FAR BETTER, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU it to stop trying to change other people's minds (aside from e.g. in threads on here, and discussions with friends who you are sure are open to what you are saying).

[doodle]

All good advice...

Regarding seduction... Mr. Money Mustache uses the "financial freedom" approach to get people attracted to low consumption lifestyles. He frames the question "why" in terms of one's financial bottom line hence using "greed or avarice" to socially engineer a certain behavior.

This approach is all fine and good, but it at the end of the day is the best you can hope for is to get people to do "the right things for the wrong reasons?"

Every culture is supported by certain ideologies and frameworks that allow it to function in a predictable way. These idelogies and frameworks are not natural laws, but rather socially constructed phenomenons. Oftentimes, they come about through what might seem like rational individual decisions but in the end result in "tragedy of the commons" type outcomes.

Buddhism teaches this idea of "non-attachment"  which I'm trying to cultivate. I have to learn to remove myself from the argument and become more process oriented and less attached to the results of my actions. I can see in this discussion at times where I start to stray from this and get personally wrapped up in things. This is not to say that getting emotional is bad, but having those emotions affect your deeper calm is something to watch out for.

Sorry.....the connection between what I just wrote to the original subject of this thread is thinner than a human hair now. 

Well, it seems like you're sharing a real personal crisis of yours here on the forum. I feel you doodle, but if you're going to do that, you might want to start a new thread. Your problems with Western society really aren't about fiat money. Your issues are about how you don't believe you fit in Western society. Either way, you ought to start a new thread if you want to keep discussing it.

Gumby, this is only a personal crisis in so much as I choose to "personalize" it. I fundamentally don't see the difference in you making an MMT economic argument against a group of Austrians, and me making a more "social/philosophical" economic argument against today's dominant ideology that undergirds our entire economic system which is that consumption = happiness.

Before constructing any system (and our economy is certainly a construction) you should have an overarching philosophy about what you are trying to achieve or what your goals are. We presently have a system that it is running on autopilot in a direction that might be detrimental to humans and their environment. In addition, there is a lot of evidence that mass consumerism does not lead to happiness and instead causes a lot of socially disfunctional behavior. I think it is perfectly appropriate to question this without being subjected to attacks that I am having some sort of "personal crisis". I could hit back and say that you are coming across as some sort of "drone slave" who has been drinking the Kool-aid for too long.

[doodle]

this massive consumer monoculture we live in desperately needs some dissenting voices!!! :-)

Do you enjoy the act of dissent itself?  Is that one of your hobbies?

Your point is very well taken and you can use that to extricate YOURSELF from being a slave to some of the silliness of our society.  Use your awareness to improve YOUR SELF AND YOUR LOT.  This is a really important understanding that not a lot of people get.  Seeing societies silliness for what it is is really healthy.

On the other hand, TOTALLY FORGET, IGNORE AND DO NOT PUT ANY ENERGY INTO SHARING YOUR DISCOVERIES WITH OTHERS (unless you are sure they are open to it). 

MT makes a valid point about HOW to try to change other people's mind, but FAR BETTER, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU it to stop trying to change other people's minds (aside from e.g. in threads on here, and discussions with friends who you are sure are open to what you are saying).

So I guess I'll just crawl back into my hovel and stop talking? I know that there are different ways of getting a message across, some more amenable than others, yet I hardly would say that I am getting extremely confrontational here. This is a discussion forum which implies an exchange of ideas. Sorry if my ideas upset most people's cultural identities here. If you personally identify with a system, then when that system is criticized it becomes a personal attack against you as an individual. I'm sure I would suffer the same fate if I brought up women's lib in a radical Islamic forum, and while my tactics of discussion might not be entirely suave, that doesn't mean the issue doesn't merit attention.

[MediumTex]

doodle,

I don't think Gumby (or anyone else) is attacking you.

Some of your posts do have the tone of someone who is making personal discoveries without understanding why everyone else isn't making the same discoveries at the same time.

People come to their own understanding of the world in different ways and at different times.

I would say by all means keep talking about what's going on in your evolving perception of reality (that's what we're all doing).

[Benko]

Doodle, I was not referring to what you do on this or any other message board.

[doodle]

Sanity is defined as majority opinion...and hence it really has no set "definition" per se. During World War 2 in Germany, the Nazi's would have justified their behavior as "sane" yet to an observer today looking back it would appear the absolute height of "insanity".

I have a friend who has over 100 pairs of shoes in his closet and enough clothes for an entire village. This is considered "sane" behavior in our present society because it feeds the economic monster of growth that has come to dominate our system. People freely talk about shopping with their friends and how much they are going to buy or want to buy and people look at them as if this is entirely healthy and normal behavior because it is the majority opinion. It is the majority opinion not because it is some sort of natural human tendency (anymore than killing 6 million innocent jews is) but is rather a systemically driven phenomenon that has taken on a life of its own. Just as Hitler inculcated the youth into the Nazi ideology, our present system inculcates the youth into the consumer ideology. The system does this because the system needs consumers to survive. The system has taken on a life of its own. It is in control and the idea of "free choice" for the majority is only an illusion. They have been programmed from the time they left the womb to see the world and their relationship to it in a certain way.

I am only saying that educated people need to understand how this process works and question assumptions deeply. No more, no less.

[Pointedstick]

doodle, perhaps you should ask yourself what it is about those other people's behavior that makes you so agitated. Since you cannot change them, you might want to pursue methods to be more at peace with them.

[doodle]

doodle, perhaps you should ask yourself what it is about those other people's behavior that makes you so agitated. Since you cannot change them, you might want to pursue methods to be more at peace with them.

I am at peace, but that doesn't preclude fundamental opposition to the system. I can survive in the belly of the beast. In fact, I'm thriving.

Is this the same line of reasoning that you would have told Copernicus when he proposed his heliocentric solar system in direct confrontation to the dominant church ideaology of the time? What about people who resist the war like nature of our foreign policy, or the inanity of certain economic decisions that our government might make? What exactly are you proposing? That I should shut my mouth and stop talking about this issue that I feel strongly about?....or that I would be better served using the dumbed down...Mr. Money Mustache approach of fooling people into what I view as the right behavior? I'd rather hit at the root of the issue...it is more intellectually honest...and stimulating. :-)

Don't confusion my passion, for a lack of peace! :-)

[Pointedstick]

Passion is great; I'm a passionate person too. But passion doesn't convince anyone… ever. I've learned this the hard way after fruitlessly bashing my head against entrenched attitudes for years. It doesn't work. It just causes people to become defensive, even those who would otherwise side with you, as you're seeing here. There is nothing wrong with challenging the assumptions of a system, but you need to be respectful of your audience and their own attitudes if you wish to have any hope of convincing them. That's not compromising your beliefs or dumbing your message down, it's being respectful of the lives and experiences of people around you that have caused them to, for whatever reasons, reach different conclusions.

[doodle]

Passion is great; I'm a passionate person too. But passion doesn't convince anyone… ever. I've learned this the hard way after fruitlessly bashing my head against entrenched attitudes for years. It doesn't work. It just causes people to become defensive, even those who would otherwise side with you, as you're seeing here. There is nothing wrong with challenging the assumptions of a system, but you need to be respectful of your audience and their own attitudes if you wish to have any hope of convincing them. That's not compromising your beliefs or dumbing your message down, it's being respectful of the lives and experiences of people around you that have caused them to, for whatever reasons, reach different conclusions.

Agreed! It is an area that I am constantly working on. Yet, opposition is opposition. I have to speak my piece and let you decide based on the logic of my argument. I can try to do this in a less confrontational manner using humor and what not, but sometimes its easier just to get straight at the point.

I am attacking underlying assumptions built into our system. This is disturbing and upsetting, especially if you find yourself pretty well contented and adjusted to the way things are running. I am certainly making waves in that regard.

My argument against the system is multifaceted, but there is a part of it that is related to the original thread title which is "why not just give everyone 30,000 dollars?" This was originally proposed as a solution to the unemployment problem by increasing aggregate demand among consumers. My argument is that we have a system that is sick with consumption and we are trying to cure it with more consumption. I fundamentally think we need to reevaluate the system from the roots up. If the only thing that can keep people gainfully employed and productive as members of society is mass mindless consumption, then we have a serious problem.

[Pointedstick]

My argument against the system is multifaceted, but there is a part of it that is related to the original thread title which is "why not just give everyone 30,000 dollars?" This was originally proposed as a solution to the unemployment problem by increasing aggregate demand among consumers. My argument is that we have a system that is sick with consumption and we are trying to cure it with more consumption. I fundamentally think we need to reevaluate the system from the roots up. If the only thing that can keep people gainfully employed and productive as members of society is mass mindless consumption, then we have a serious problem.

Actually, the immediate problem referenced by the original post was poverty, not unemployment. I would tend to agree that simply giving every poor person $30,000 wouldn't help much, in largely the same way that most lottery ticket winners soon find themselves broke again. Poverty originates as a mindset, not a lack of money. A poor person with a healthy mindset will quickly escape from poverty; a rich person with a sick mindset will quickly lose it all.

What you're talking about is transcending the concept of poverty as a financial state. For example, despite your low income and spending, you're in no sense "poor." You are psychologically healthy, you have a budget surplus, you're in a safe place in your life. I agree with you that this would be a superior place for most people without a lot of money, and that simply giving them a huge chunk of cash will help them become neither rich nor enlightened.

[Gumby]

Gumby, this is only a personal crisis in so much as I choose to "personalize" it. I fundamentally don't see the difference in you making an MMT economic argument against a group of Austrians, and me making a more "social/philosophical" economic argument against today's dominant ideology that undergirds our entire economic system which is that consumption = happiness.

When we discuss the operational aspects of our monetary system, right or wrong, we do it to help understand our (economic) world better. It's highly relevant to topics about the impending doom many PP holders are trying to prepare for. Without MR (Monetary Realism) I think many of us would have sold our LTTs awhile ago and screwed up our PPs (sound familiar?)

The difference is that you made this discussion more about your own personal problems with society than the problems with society in general. You make it sound like people are deranged for not exclusively following your Mr. Money Mustache lifestyle.

The MMM lifestyle is not for everyone. In fact, MMM self-describes his early-retirement lifestyle as "hardcore". The thing is, most people want to go to work so they can provide goods and services for their families. The whole reason this forum exists is so that we can preserve the wealth and purchasing power we've all worked so hard to create.

[MediumTex]

Gumby, this is only a personal crisis in so much as I choose to "personalize" it. I fundamentally don't see the difference in you making an MMT economic argument against a group of Austrians, and me making a more "social/philosophical" economic argument against today's dominant ideology that undergirds our entire economic system which is that consumption = happiness.

When we discuss the operational aspects of our monetary system, we do it to help understand our (economic) world better. It's highly relevant to topics about the impending doom many PP holders are trying to prepare for.

The difference is that you made the discussion more about your own personal problems with society than the problems with society in general. You make it sounds like people are deranged for not exclusively following your Mr. Money Mustache lifestyle.

The MMM lifestyle is not for everyone. Many people want to go to work so they can provide goods and services for their families. The whole reason this forum exists is so that we can preserve the wealth and purchasing power we've all worked so hard to create.

There is an ultimate futility to pursuing consumption in the same way that there is ultimate futility in bothering to eat because you're still going to die someday.

Just because something ultimately doesn't really lead to anything doesn't mean that it's not worth doing or wouldn't be enjoyable to do.

The ascetic has a tendency to look in on the world with a bit of scorn, but what is the point of living if not to live?  Perhaps some consume too much, but I am not concerned with the way other people choose to live.  I am only concerned with how I choose to live. 

I like the idea of leaving people alone to make their own decisions about how to live their lives in the hope that they will do the same for me.

I sometimes think that humans take themselves too seriously as a species.  We will inhabit this planet for however long we inhabit it, and the forces that will lead to the next iteration of biological life are VASTLY beyond our control.  We create for ourselves the illusion of control over our long term destiny because we are wired to be very dominant over our environment and any other species we encounter.  We're like a cross between a lion and a cockroach.

In all of these efforts to control the planet's climate, resources and other fits of hubris, Mother Nature laughs at us the way a tsunami might laugh at children in a kiddie pool complaining about other kids splashing water on them.

Imagine a small group of dinosaurs protesting the excessive eating of the earth's vegetation.  How silly would that have been?  How much more time would the dinosaurs have had if they had all gone on a diet?

We are an intelligent iteration of life that has a self-consciousness that creates all sorts of interesting things, but we are by no means any kind of ultimate expression of life.  We only think we are because the traits that have encouraged the survival of our species have selected for boldness, intelligence and a bit of delusion.  Without a dash of delusion self-consciousness would be an intensely painful psychological experience.  With the right mix of hubris and delusion, however, you get these great mythological types of human experiences in which an ordinary human can be animal, man and god, all at the same time.  It's great fun...

...until an extinction event occurs and our story ends and somewhere farther along the geological calendar the next story of biological life begins.

Humanity will always be trying to perfect itself, and it will always fail.  We will never be satisfied as a species.  We weren't designed to be satisfied.  It is this sense of "uneasiness" that spurs all human action, and this is the basis for economics that von Mises used in his excellent book Human Action.  Good economics is, in a sense, a study of human restlessness and unease.

I would say embrace the tragedy and wonder of our species.  Wallow in it.  Enjoy it.  Have fun.  We will each individually die one day, and our entire species will one day become extinct as well.  It's all part of a process that has been unfolding for hundreds of millions of years.  Rather than trying to control this destiny or alter it, perhaps we should just do like the surfer does with the wave and enjoy the ride for however long it lasts.  When you look at the face of a surfer catching a nice wave does he look troubled by anything that is wrong with the world?  Nah, he's just thinking about how cool it is to riding such a bitchin wave.

[doodle]

When we discuss the operational aspects of our monetary system, right or wrong, we do it to help understand our (economic) world better. It's highly relevant to topics about the impending doom many PP holders are trying to prepare for. Without MR (Monetary Realism) I think many of us would have sold our LTTs awhile ago and screwed up our PPs (sound familiar?)

The operational aspects of this monetary system are fine and good, but they do not make up a complete picture of our "economic world". Economics is a social science and therefore first and foremost must concern itself with social issues. My primary contention is that our exonomic system is no longer moving in a direction that is positively serving large segments of society. We have a big unemployment issue as this thread originally adressed....the idea that what our society is lacking and therefore causing this unemployment is that we arent consuming enough (when our planets ecosystem is stressed to the max at present and all this consumption is having no appreciable effect on personal happiness) is asinine.

[Benko]

In all of these efforts to control the planet's climate, resources and other fits of hubris, Mother Nature laughs at us

There is a great George Carlin video on youtube about humans, global warming and our hubris is thinking we can have much effects on things.

I like the idea of leaving people alone to make their own decisions about how to live their lives in the hope that they will do the same for me.

I very much agree, but that is not the attitude of the people in power now in this country (just ask Gibson Guitar).

[doodle]

In all of these efforts to control the planet's climate, resources and other fits of hubris, Mother Nature laughs at us

There is a great George Carlin video on youtube about humans, global warming and our hubris is thinking we can have much effects on things.

I like the idea of leaving people alone to make their own decisions about how to live their lives in the hope that they will do the same for me.

I very much agree, but that is not the attitude of the people in power now in this country (just ask Gibson Guitar).

What are you talking about? Humans have a tremendous power to affect things in their environment. We have caused the extinction of species even destroyed entire ecosystems making them uninhabitable. Modern technology has only amplified our destructive abilities.

MT,

What people do you see making their own decisions? You are indoctrinated by the system from the moment you are born. Our system aims to create mindless consumers who don't do too much thinking lest they upset things. No, no, that won't do. Better you just shut up and consume. How can a person conceive of what light is if they live their entire lives surrounded by darkness? The system reinforces itself through a feedback like mechanism. There is little free thought going on. When freethinkers come along, society hammers them down or just kills them.....kind of like Jesus. It is only through great struggle or selling out the message (which is what eventually happened with Christianity) that things become a part of the overall power structure.

[Pointedstick]

What people do you see making their own decisions? You are indoctrinated by the system from the moment you are born. Our system aims to create mindless consumers who don't do too much thinking lest they upset things. No, no, that won't do. Better you just shut up and consume. How can a person conceive of what light is if they live their entire lives surrounded by darkness? The system reinforces itself through a feedback like mechanism. There is little free thought going on. When freethinkers come along, society hammers them down or just kills them.....kind of like Jesus. It is only through great struggle or selling out the message (which is what eventually happened with Christianity) that things become a part of the overall power structure.

Could you outline how you escaped this depressing fate? Or are you too in fact not making your own decisions? Is this entire conversation simply your physical body channeling society's rebellious streak?

[MediumTex]

MT,

What people do you see making their own decisions? You are indoctrinated by the system from the moment you are born. Our system aims to create mindless consumers who don't do too much thinking lest they upset things. No, no, that won't do. Better you just shut up and consume. How can a person conceive of what light is if they live their entire lives surrounded by darkness? The system reinforces itself through a feedback like mechanism. There is little free thought going on. When freethinkers come along, society hammers them down or just kills them.....kind of like Jesus. It is only through great struggle or selling out the message (which is what eventually happened with Christianity) that things become a part of the overall power structure.

Some people like being asleep.  Some people like running with the herd.  Some people like being slavish conformists to the fashion of their times.

Why do I have to be the world's alarm clock when no one even asked me to wake them up?

I think that I do more good through the example that I set than I could ever do standing on a street corner preaching.

[doodle]

What people do you see making their own decisions? You are indoctrinated by the system from the moment you are born. Our system aims to create mindless consumers who don't do too much thinking lest they upset things. No, no, that won't do. Better you just shut up and consume. How can a person conceive of what light is if they live their entire lives surrounded by darkness? The system reinforces itself through a feedback like mechanism. There is little free thought going on. When freethinkers come along, society hammers them down or just kills them.....kind of like Jesus. It is only through great struggle or selling out the message (which is what eventually happened with Christianity) that things become a part of the overall power structure.

Could you outline how you escaped this depressing fate? Or are you too in fact not making your own decisions? Is this entire conversation simply your physical body channeling society's rebellious streak?

I am greatly affected by the cultural structures that surround me. My ideals of beauty for example are in many ways tied to what is portrayed as beautiful in the media. Yet, I'm aware that beauty is not an absolute concept but rather a subjective social construct. What is considered beautiful in other cultures because of this process of social conditioning, might appear totally hideous to me because I had a different conditioning process. So off the bat I'm aware that my feelings and opinions are not necessarily my own, but rather belong to the larger society in which I live.

Now, applying this idea to economics, we have a system whose very survival depends on inculcating people with certain beliefs. One of these beliefs is that consumption = happiness. In other words, that you are fundamentally unfulfilled and unhappy until you start consuming. Up to a certain point I agree. A man with a pair of shoes in the winter is undeniably happier than a barefoot man with frostbite on his toes. But, just like there is a point when you eat where you say, "okay, I'm full now"  there is a point where the marginal returns on more consumption don't only flatline but start to become negative. The problem is though that just like an obese person loses their ability to distinguish when they have had enough to eat, our society continues to consume and consume (to the detriment of our environment and maybe our sanity) as if this is the solution to finding a happy and fulfilling life. Sure people can opt out and try to lead a different lifestyle, but doing that is like trying to dance a waltz when the band is playing salsa music.

Most everything in our society is set up to steer people down a path that results in a dollar sign for someone. I no longer believe that consumers create demand for products, I think in many many cases demand for products is manufactured. Why else would I have a perfectly good pair of pants yet think they look out of fashion? Why are stainless steel appliances so popular? Because they are inherently prettier than the avocado green ones that were fashionable in the 60s? No, these preferences and hence our demand for products is beamed down to us by the companies who first tell us what we have isn't good enough and then that they have the solution to this fairy tale problem that they have just invented for us. They give us the headache so that they can then sell us the aspirin, so to speak. I think an intelligent person should be able to see this nonsense game for what it truly is. Now, if it were a harmless game, I wouldn't care at all, anymore than I care when someone says they like football over basketball. But, I think this game is far from harmless....not only for our environment, but also for the psychological health and happiness of our society at large. We have huge numbers of incarcerated, depressed, mal adjusted, ignorant, or unemployed and disillusioned people in our midsts and the only solution we can think of is "more consumption and growth". I think we are looking for solutions in all the wrong places because the real solution doesn't have a dollar sign attached to it.

[doodle]

MT,

What people do you see making their own decisions? You are indoctrinated by the system from the moment you are born. Our system aims to create mindless consumers who don't do too much thinking lest they upset things. No, no, that won't do. Better you just shut up and consume. How can a person conceive of what light is if they live their entire lives surrounded by darkness? The system reinforces itself through a feedback like mechanism. There is little free thought going on. When freethinkers come along, society hammers them down or just kills them.....kind of like Jesus. It is only through great struggle or selling out the message (which is what eventually happened with Christianity) that things become a part of the overall power structure.

Why do I have to be the world's alarm clock when no one even asked me to wake them up?

What happens if the person was sleepwalking into oncoming traffic? I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, I'm merely advertising another option and way of perceiving things. People are free to change the channel when they wish.

If everyone thought like the passive ideal you speak of, the world would be a pretty lifeless place as we just kind of droned along never exchanging or discussing ideas or feeling the least bit of zest or passion for anything.

I'm shaking things up and pissing a lot of people off probably and maybe I've also unintentionally alienated a few as well. But whatever... I'm speaking my mind which thankfully is still a right guaranteed by the constitution. My message won't appeal to everyone and I get that, but maybe I've also sparked a thought in someone's mind that wasn't there before. I can say for certain that arguments and discussions on this board regarding the monetary system have been incredibly enlightening to the way in which I view current economic events. That would have never happened if Gumby, or Moda or you had just taken a passive approach and written me off....or said "well he's gonna believe whatever he wants to. Who am I to disagree?"

[doodle]

I've noticed something else....it's okay to make criticisms about how things operate "within" the system, but to step back and criticize the system itself is unacceptably unnerving for most people. Many people are so intertwined and wrapped up in the system that a critique of the philosophies that underlie it is almost seen as a personal affront.

The system is elevated therefore from "social construct" to "universal truth" and is beyond reproach. It's ideologies and methodologies are literally sacrosanct and unassailable.