Gun suggestions

[dualstow]

I have my wife convinced that it's dangerous to have flashy accessories in this city (it's true) but I'm pretty sure she qualifies as hot-ass...
and I don't know how to fight.
Now what do I do?

[Pointedstick]

I have my wife convinced that it's dangerous to have flashy accessories in this city (it's true) but I'm pretty sure she qualifies as hot-ass...
and I don't know how to fight.
Now what do I do?

If you think there's a real possibility of danger, get both of you concealed-carry permits, train up, and carry handguns. Or alternatively, stunguns. Those are often less regulated.

I live in an area where my wife and I aren't legally permitted to do this, but honestly, I feel like it's safe enough that it doesn't bother me on a personal level that much. But if we had to move to a more dangerous place, we'd do it ASAP.

[dualstow]

@Pointed

I think tasers are illegal here but I'll check up on basic stun guns. The missus refuses to carry pepper spray, but I escort her to and from work and I carry the spray. A friend of ours is a firearms instructor so we're working on the rest but, sadly she's not that interested.

[moda0306]

How long does ammo last?  I'd imagine that'd be a good thing to load up on, per some of the mentioned scarcity observations... a shotgun per household member with all the ammo you could ever use is a heck of a lot better risk-management than 15 different guns for 15 different specific occasions and a box of ammo for each because you have neither the space or oney to hold all the ammo necessary to make those guns work.  I can't imagine too many situations (though I'm a complete dunce when it comes to home defense) where a shotgun with various ammo types would fail but a rifle would succeed.  That said, I tend to have the feeling that a trifecta of a great handgun, rifle, and shotgun would be the most fun/secure combo to have.  I currently have a Winchester .22 rifle and a 20 gauge shotgun.  Hardly fort knox.

To go along with Coffee's statement on shotguns, trap shooting is very fun and easy, and appears to be a great pass-time and training exercise for hitting a moving target without having to actually go out and try to find birds to shoot, clean, cook and consume (things that do not appeal to me in the least... well, except for the last part).

If you get a chance, go to one of these outdoor gun shows that let you try various guns.  They're a great time, and I'd never buy a gun now without first having tried one out after having shot a few this way. 

[Pointedstick]

Ammo lasts effectively forever, especially if it's stored in a cool dry place with a dessicant. I would tend to agree that stocking up is a good idea. Can't ever hurt to have a few thousand rounds in your closet.

Man, trap shooting. Fun, but damn is it expensive! The place nearest me charges $7 a round, and that's not including ammo. It works out to being about $13 for 10 minutes of fun, which I really just can't justify to myself. Do you have a place where you can shoot trap cheaper? Or do you have a clay thrower you set up out in the woods and just pay for the ammo and clays?

[moda0306]

Ammo lasts effectively forever, especially if it's stored in a cool dry place with a dessicant. I would tend to agree that stocking up is a good idea. Can't ever hurt to have a few thousand rounds in your closet.

Man, trap shooting. Fun, but damn is it expensive! The place nearest me charges $7 a round, and that's not including ammo. It works out to being about $13 for 10 minutes of fun, which I really just can't justify to myself. Do you have a place where you can shoot trap cheaper? Or do you have a clay thrower you set up out in the woods and just pay for the ammo and clays?

PS,

Mine's exactly the same.  Where are you from again? 

It's only 10 minutes of fun, I know, but there's something about getting ready, going, standing around, shooting, observing redneckery, leaving with a high-score grin on your face, and cleaing the guns to a few beers that makes it more than just a 10 minute event.  Also, think of all the money you spend hunting while you're not actually shooting.  I tend to thinik there's probably a similar effect there.

Interestingly, the one I go to is smack in the middle of suburbia... the first time I went there, I was driving through a cookie cutter townhome neighborhood wondering if I should recheck the address and there it was... a trap shooting range at the end of a cul-de-sac... guns popping off left and right... we couldn't believe it.

[Pointedstick]

I'm in Kooky Kalifornia, and I'm with you moda, it's a heck of a lot of fun, but maybe I'm just too much of a miser. It also might have to do with the last time I shot with a co-worker who I had brought to the range. Dude shot a 23 on his first time ever holding a shotgun (out of 25, for those who haven't played it). I struggle to exceed 19.  I tend to have more fun shooting my AR-15 anyway.

[BearBones]

I have always thought that a trio of a nice pump shotgun, an AR-15-style rifle and a .357 magnum revolver would be very nice.  Substituting a Glock 9mm for the .357 is fine.

My input in a nutshell: ...You're better off with a good pistol and rifle you know you can operate and shoot well than dozens of guns you have less familiarity with. A 9mm handgun and AR-15 would be two choices that you could own and know you have everything covered. Or a 9mm and M1A if you want a more powerful round for more duties than close in defense.

...That said, I tend to have the feeling that a trifecta of a great handgun, rifle, and shotgun would be the most fun/secure combo to have.

Ok, looks like a rough consensus among posts is: 12 g shotgun, 9mm Glock, bolt action .308 rifle, and AR-15. Don't want all 4. If I had to drop one, what would others do (mission: defend and feed oneself in a SHTF world)?

[Ad Orientem]

Ok, looks like a rough consensus among posts is: 12 g shotgun, 9mm Glock, bolt action .308 rifle, and AR-15. Don't want all 4. If I had to drop one, what would others do (mission: defend and feed oneself in a SHTF world)?

I'd drop the .308 rifle. The AR 15 will serve for both hunting and defense. I'd also substitute a .357 mag revolver for the Glock 9mm. Semi-auto's are significantly more high maintenance than revolvers and spare parts might not be readily available in a post SHTF world. Revolvers are also generally more user friendly and mechanically reliable.

[t-bear52]

Agreed about revolver.

I'd suggest the .357 and a lever rifle in .357 as well. Only need one kind of ammo. And you can use cheaper .38 Special ammo for all that practice you need to do! Might there not be a benefit to have lots of one type of ammo vs a little bit of several?

The lever rifle certainly doesn't have the ammo capacity as AR 15.  But it is not nearly as noticeable  to others. In a post SHTF world, there may be something to be said for being a bit under the radar. And may not be outlawed/confiscated as soon as the AR-15.

And of course get the shotgun! 

[craigr]

A Glock 9mm carries 15 rounds and is extremely reliable. I'll take 15 rounds over 6 in a revolver. Not to mention the ability to reload quickly with the Glock. Glock spare parts are much more available IMO than parts for revolvers. I can mail order a complete glock rebuild kit online right now, including a brand new barrel! Revolvers aren't standard enough to do that. IMO.

With a 9mm Glock and AR-15 you'd be set for anything. Very flexible. Or if you have the 9mm and .308 you have power to shoot even large game animals. I would skip the shotgun myself. They are my least favorite weapon. They are too hard to handle under pressure, too much recoil, too hard to reload, and people of small stature have a difficult time with them. I'd rather have 30 rounds of .223 in my rifle than 8 rounds of 12 gauge. Plus the rifle has much longer range and stand-off distance in a fire fight is important. If I can keep someone 50-200 yards+ away from me with a rifle that is a huge advantage. At close distance a rifle is just as lethal as a shotgun. It all comes down to shot placement. At mid-long distance the rifle dominates.

My vote:

Glock 19
AR15
Springfield M1A if you want a 308 instead of the .223 AR15
Ruger 10/22 for cheap practice and small game hunting.

[Tortoise]

Great discussion. I'll have to disagree with some of you regarding shotguns, though.

For hunting and self-defense in a SHTF scenario, I would choose both a handgun and a rifle. The handgun because it's concealable--very important when you're roaming from place to place, trying not to draw attention to oneself--and the rifle because you can shoot big animals accurately without having to get dangerously close.

The shotgun's unique strength is in home defense at close range, which may not be very applicable in a SHTF scenario where you're roaming from place to place. I took a shotgun self-defense course a while back at the local shooting range, and the instructor/owner (a Vietnam vet with combat experience) emphasized that what makes the shotgun so great for home defense is its unique combination of speed and accuracy.

A handgun is very fast, but accuracy can be a challenge because you're holding/stabilizing it at (approximately) a single point in space. By contrast, a rifle is very accurate since you're holding/stabilizing it at three points in space (left hand, right hand, and shoulder), but it's slower to set up a good shot. A shotgun provides both speed and accuracy. It's fairly accurate because you have that three-point stabilization, just like with the rifle. And it's fairly fast because you don't have to aim quite as carefully as with the rifle. You still have to aim, to be sure, but the buckshot spreads out a bit so it gives you more room for error. That's important, because we're imperfect shooters living in an imperfect world.

Reloading speed is also something to consider for a SHTF world. If you have a semi-auto firearm, reloading speed isn't much of an issue if you have a bunch of spare loaded magazines. Just pop the empty magazine out and pop the full one in. But if you ever have to stop and reload one of those magazines--or a revolver--you're dead in the water. It's slow, especially when your hands are shaking. Here's where pump-action shotguns provide yet another advantage. You can reload those suckers one shell at a time with blinding speed if you have a pocketful of shells. We did it every day in that shotgun class I took. We'd stand there and shoot rapid-fire until the gun was empty. Then we'd immediately reach into our pocket--filled with dozens of shells--and in one fluid motion, bring the shell up to the gun, throw/smack it into the open chamber, and rack it for the next shot.

For that unique combination of speed and accuracy, you really can't beat a pump-action shotgun for home defense. But like I said, for a roaming situation in a SHTF world, my money's on a handgun and a rifle. I don't yet own a rifle, but I really enjoy my Glock 9mm. You can practically bury that thing in mud and it will still shoot when you dig it back up.

[BearBones]

I'd drop the .308 rifle. The AR 15 will serve for both hunting and defense.

Naive question, but I'm still not clear if you could you hunt deer in a pinch with AR 15? I'm wanting something that is useful for more than self-defense.

A Glock 9mm carries 15 rounds and is extremely reliable. I'll take 15 rounds over 6 in a revolver. Not to mention the ability to reload quickly with the Glock. Glock spare parts are much more available IMO than parts for revolvers. I can mail order a complete glock rebuild kit online right now, including a brand new barrel! Revolvers aren't standard enough to do that. IMO.

Craig, in a real SHTF scenario, you might not be able to order anything,  so I'd favor reliability over rounds. If you were in the rainy/muddy back woods or if there was no electricity for a prolonged period of time, would you still choose the Glock?

[Pointedstick]

I'd drop the .308 rifle. The AR 15 will serve for both hunting and defense.

Naive question, but I'm still not clear if you could you hunt deer in a pinch with AR 15? I'm wanting something that is useful for more than self-defense.

Not humanely. .223 is too small to reliably dispatch a deer with one shot.

A Glock 9mm carries 15 rounds and is extremely reliable. I'll take 15 rounds over 6 in a revolver. Not to mention the ability to reload quickly with the Glock. Glock spare parts are much more available IMO than parts for revolvers. I can mail order a complete glock rebuild kit online right now, including a brand new barrel! Revolvers aren't standard enough to do that. IMO.

Craig, in a real SHTF scenario, you might not be able to order anything,  so I'd favor reliability over rounds. If you were in the rainy/muddy back woods or if there was no electricity for a prolonged period of time, would you still choose the Glock?

I would say so, yes. The reliability of Glocks is pretty legendary. For that matter, most modern semi-autos are. I've never had a single failure of any sort with my Kahr CW9, which is often dismissed by the internet as a member of a finicky and jam-prone family of handguns.

[dualstow]

The shotgun's unique strength is in home defense at close range, which may not be very applicable in a SHTF scenario where you're roaming from place to place. I took a shotgun self-defense course a while back at the local shooting range, and the instructor/owner (a Vietnam vet with combat experience) emphasized that what makes the shotgun so great for home defense is its unique combination of speed and accuracy.

And stopping power.

[Kriegsspiel]

IMO, the Glock is the AK-47 of handguns: utterly reliable, simple, easy to maintain.  However, I am going with the .40 S&W Glock, with the addition of the .40-9mm barrel conversion from Lone Wolf.  This way, I can shoot both .40 and 9mm.

[craigr]

Craig, in a real SHTF scenario, you might not be able to order anything,  so I'd favor reliability over rounds. If you were in the rainy/muddy back woods or if there was no electricity for a prolonged period of time, would you still choose the Glock?

Yes I would. The thing won't rust! The coating on it is tremendously hard. Maintenance is likely easier than a revolver. I'd have no problem dunking the Glock in mud water. The revolver would get that stuff in the internals and all sorts of problems could happen. They are also harder to strip completely to clean. I can pull the entire Glock apart in less than five minutes to clean/dry/inspect. And again, I can order a complete parts kit (minus receiver and slide). Meaning that if anything is broken outside of the receiver or slide shattering it can be fixed. The parts kit could fit inside a container smaller than the Glock itself.

On the shotgun, I know my advice is not mainstream (is it ever?). I just think shotguns have a lot of disadvantages and I'm just going to lay out my opinion so people can understand my reasoning:

Firstly the pattern size inside a house is still the size of a golfball or perhaps baseball at the most. So you still do have to aim them.

Secondly, there is the muzzle flash and noise inside a confined space (try shooting one inside shoot house for fun!). Then the recoil is there.

Third, you get that limited ammo and when under pressure people miss targets a lot. So I'd just much rather have that 30 rounds* in the rifle and another 30 sitting in my back pocket ready to go. That's 60 rounds of return fire that is quickly reloaded vs. a shotgun's 8 rounds plus whatever you are fumbling with as loose rounds in your pocket, or in a side saddle that you are dropping on the ground as you pull them out with shaking hands, trying to load in backwards under pressure, etc. The less you have to reload a weapon when shooting under pressure the less chance of a serious malfunction. The shotgun user will reload 3-5 times before the AR15 operator reloads once!

Finally (and most important IMO) you have that improved range. If I'm in a gun fight I'd want to get distance away from the attacker and return fire from behind cover. The rifle lets you do that. Even better, it keeps people away if you were defending your home from intruders that haven't gotten in yet. That stand-off distance is a huge tactical advantage if you are going up against guys who are armed with perhaps only pistols or even shotguns. They won't be able to get close enough to use them effectively. I've done a lot of shooting courses and marksmanship instruction and hands-down in a small-arms firefight I'd want a rifle! Someone properly trained with a larger caliber rifle (.308) can easily control an area out to 600 yards. In closer roles (which are more likely), anyone under 200 yards of a competent rifle shooter is in serious jeopardy and at close distance the rifle at Mach 2+ speeds is just as lethal as a shotgun. With that AR15 I could probably have off ~3 well placed shots before the person with the shotgun has gotten the bead back down to aim after their first. And, I would have another ~25 rounds left if they are not stopped or retreating by that point!

So if I could only own two guns it would be:

1) Glock 19 in 9mm (Because of reliability, ammo availability, parts availability, concealability, and capacity)
2) AR-15 or M1A (More likely the M1A because I can handle .308 well, but the AR15 I admit is easier for most to shoot and parts more standard and easier to obtain/maintain over the M1A. However the M1A is more reliable overall and the .308 is much more powerful. IMO.)

* Actually I put only ~28 rounds in the AR mags as they feed better for me. I also encourage you to use Magpul PMAGs in the AR15.

[dualstow]

I think I'm convinced on the rifle > shotgun for SHTF. I still want a shotgun for home defense, but everything you guys are saying to BearBones with regard to the SHTF question makes perfect sense to me.
I think there's a combo rifle-shotgun out there, but I can imagine that being unwieldy for many people. It comes with its own problems.
MT always stresses getting to know your neighbors. Maybe one person in the group could have a shotgun.

[BearBones]

AR-15 suggestions? Not sure where to start.

[Bean]

DPMS or get it custom built at gun show I love GA

[Pointedstick]

AR-15 suggestions? Not sure where to start.

If you're not sure where to start, I'd suggest buying a basic one with a lightweight barrel. Should run you under $800. This one is nice: http://www.del-ton.com/DT_Sport_p/dtsport.htm

The downside to this is that if you can't find a complete rifle locally (unlikely, frankly), you'll need to buy it online which entails getting it shipped to a nearby gun store and paying that gun store's transfer fee, which ranges from $15 to $150 depending on how healthy the local market is for that type of firearm.

If you're a bit mechanically inclined, I'd suggest buying the complete upper receiver over the internet, and you can get it shipped right to your door since it's not a firearm. Then you buy the lower receiver (which is legally the firearm) locally for under $100. Then you complete the lower yourself with a lower parts kit for under $60 and a stock kit for under $60.

This kit gives you everything you need except for the lower and a rear sight, for $470: http://www.del-ton.com/Rifle_Kit_p/rkt103.htm

IMHO, it's a steal. You put the included parts in your lower, attach the included stock, then attach the pre-built upper and your rear sight (I recommend this one: http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/ind ... ory_ID=234)

That's a complete rifle for $470 + shipping + $55 + cost of your locally-purchased lower receiver. Pretty dang good deal. It's also even more cheaperer since there's an additional 11% federal tax on firearms. Since the lower lower receiver itself is technically the firearm, if you buy that on its own, you're only paying the tax on the smaller price of the lower receiver instead of the higher price of the complete rifle. You'll probably save another $60 or $70.

[dualstow]

Trying out a friend's Glock tomorrow for the first time, yay!!

[Coffee]

Craig, in a real SHTF scenario, you might not be able to order anything,  so I'd favor reliability over rounds. If you were in the rainy/muddy back woods or if there was no electricity for a prolonged period of time, would you still choose the Glock?

You're getting too wrapped up in survivalist fantasy scenarios.  

Consider the following --

Scenario 1: For reasons beyond your control, you find yourself in a refugee camp.  No way around it.  For me? I'd want a Ruger LCP .380 that I can hide in a pair of thunderwear (it's like a holster you can wear over your underwear).  Most likely scenario is that the camp guards never know you're carrying it.  You still have protection.  In a "real SHTF" ... you can't do that with a Glock 19.  Buy a Glock 19, too... just so you have options!

Scenario 2:  An EMP hits the country.  You find yourself in a situation where you have to walk several hundred miles over a period of days or possibly weeks.  I'd want a .22 rifle with at least a couple hundred rounds.  Try schlepping a couple hundred rounds of .308.  It gets heavy, fast.

So, you can see that imposing artificial limits on your arsenal is only kidding yourself.  Start slowly.  Buy one or two guns as finances permit.  Then buy a few more, just like you would with tools.  The Leatherman Multi-tool is a fantastic thing to have, but I wouldn't want to rely on it to build a house.

[dualstow]

Trying out a friend's Glock tomorrow for the first time, yay!!

I have nothing to compare it to as I've mostly only shot long guns, but the Glock 17 was quite comfy.

[Kriegsspiel]

I'm heading to the range soon to try out my new Glock 23.  The only other pistol I've shot was an M9 (which is the Beretta 92 9mm), so this will be my first compact.  The next firearm I have my eyes on is a quality 12ga shotgun.