Gyroscopic Investing

WiseOne wrote:If the increase in CHF deaths is due to the introduction of statins, then how do you explain the 4-fold rise from the mid-1970's to 1990?

Most likely due to trans fats and other factors. Besides, CHF clearly spiked after statins were introduced. Would be interesting to see the data through 2012.

WiseOne wrote:Pravachol wasn't introduced in the U.S. until 1991.  And, wouldn't you expect a delay before the increase in deaths?  It's not like every patient at risk for CHF started Pravachol the instant it was introduced, or that there was no time delay between starting the medicine and experiencing the hypothesized effect.

Huh? Pravachol wasn't the first statin. Lovastatin was approved in 1987.

Lovastatin was approved by the US FDA in 1987. It was the first statin approved by the FDA
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovastatin

WiseOne wrote:Turns out there are many other factors involved in CHF...hypertension, obesity, diabetes, plus the fact that people with cardiovascular disease have become more likely to survive heart attacks and get coronary bypass grafts, thus giving them the opportunity to live longer and develop CHF.  I'd at least hesitate before laying all the blame on the doorstep of one of the several classes of drugs used to treat these patients.

Good point. But, you didn't address the fact that statins block the production of CoQ10 — which seems like a big problem for CHF. WiseOne, just curious, but do you prescribe statins to patients for preventative purposes? (i.e. patients with no previous history of heart disease or arteriosclerosis)

AdamA wrote: Where are you getting this information? 

I assume you are referring to the fasting reference:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 5280902014
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 5287903467
http://turkishjournalpediatrics.org/ped ... JP_385.pdf
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=384537
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/109346/ ... aY8QhWL.12
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 097.x/full

Can you name a safer pain medication? 

There is no safe pain medication because of how they work, but aspirin is relatively safer than Tylenol and standardized White Willow herb may be the relative safest of all.  Another alternative is a proprietary extract of Angelica: http://www.clarityenterprises.com/JLM/decursinol.html

AdamA wrote:Can you name a safer pain medication?

Swedish Bitters have had a pretty good safety track record, since about 1500 A.D.

For general aches and pains, (transdermal) Magnesium oil works surprisingly well (it's sort of like concentrated sea water that comes in a spray bottle). Due to soil depletion, most of the population is now Magnesium deficient — which tends to cause all sorts of problems that people mistakenly tend to use pain medication to try to fix (headaches, pains, muscle cramps, arthritic joints, etc.). You'd be amazed how much a little Magnesium oil can fix. Oral Magnesium is poorly absorbed and can cause digestive issues. Transdermal Magnesium is far more efficient and safer to use. It works locally, but it also reduces or cures many chronic issues the more you use it. Some people get a little sleepy and relaxed when they use Magnesium oil, particularly if they are Magnesium deficient (it sort of feels like swimming in the ocean for an hour) and it can sting for a few seconds when it goes on...but that's usually the worst thing that will happen from using Magnesium oil.

Gumby wrote: For general aches and pains, (transdermal) Magnesium oil works surprisingly well (it's sort of like concentrated sea water that comes in a spray bottle). Due to soil depletion, most of the population is now Magnesium deficient — which tends to cause all sorts of problems that people mistakenly tend to use pain medication to try to fix (headaches, pains, muscle cramps, arthritic joints, etc.). You'd be amazed how much a little Magnesium oil can fix. Oral Magnesium is poorly absorbed and can cause digestive issues. Transdermal Magnesium is far more efficient and safer to use. It works locally, but it also reduces or cures many chronic issues the more you use it. Some people get a little sleepy and relaxed when they use Magnesium oil, particularly if they are Magnesium deficient (it sort of feels like swimming in the ocean for an hour) and it can sting for a few seconds when it goes on...but that's usually the worst thing that will happen from using Magnesium oil.

Oral magnesium (as with all minerals) is only poorly absorbed if its not properly chelated with a transport carrier as occurs in nature.  Cheap mineral oxides are just sea floor rocks, limestone, etc..  It is like eating clam shells without the clam.

What's in magnesium oil that makes it more absorbable compared to Epsom Salts which is not really absorbable?  It sounds interesting enough to try.

MachineGhost wrote:Oral magnesium (as with all minerals) is only poorly absorbed if its not properly chelated with a transport carrier as occurs in nature.  Cheap mineral oxides are just sea floor rocks, limestone, etc..  It is like eating clam shells without the clam.

I believe that. But, some people just have trouble getting Magnesium into their blood stream. Magnesium oil is just a very easy way to get Magnesium into the body. It can be localized on to areas of the body transdermally, nebulized into the lungs, diluted into eye drops, or even squirted onto parts of the mouth. It's very versatile.

MachineGhost wrote:What's in magnesium oil that makes it more absorbable compared to Epsom Salts which is not really absorbable?  It sounds interesting enough to try.

Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate, which is rapidly excreted through the kidneys. That's why Epsom Salts are difficult to absorb. Magnesium oil is an ultra-concentrated magnesium chloride that your skin sucks up like a straw and assimilates extremely well through the bloodstream — bypassing the digestive system entirely.

See page 112 of: http://www.mpwhi.com/magnesium_for_life.pdf

And additionally... http://magnesiumforlife.com/transdermal-magnesium/

You can actually make magnesium oil with a homemade brine of distilled water and magnesium flakes — though the store-bought magnesium is even more pure. So, the oil is really just a concentrated magnesium chloride bath that is highly absorbable. I'll tell you one thing, you definitely notice it working. I practically fell asleep after using it.

[quote="MachineGhost"]

I assume you are referring to the fasting reference:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 5280902014
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 5287903467
http://turkishjournalpediatrics.org/ped ... JP_385.pdf
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=384537
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/109346/ ... aY8QhWL.12
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 097.x/full

[quote]

What results from those papers make you think that Tylenol is not safe?

AdamA wrote: What results from those papers make you think that Tylenol is not safe?

When you fast, it depletes your gluthianone levels which is one of the body's master antioxidants and which the liver uses to protect itself from toxic substances, like Tylenol.  Most of the studies I posted will show that the gluthianone levels are depleted after fasting and is actually a worse condition for promoting acute liver failure than combining Tylenol with alcohol!  NAC is a precursor to replenishing gluthianone in the body; in fact, emergency rooms use it for Tylenol poisioning or overdoses.

Even the other NSAID's are relatively safer, though they all cause gut damage, kidney damage and liver damage.  It's just not as much of a Russian Roulette proposition.

MachineGhost wrote:
Even the other NSAID's are relatively safer, though they all cause gut damage, kidney damage and liver damage.  It's just not as much of a Russian Roulette proposition.

You really think NSAID's are safer than Tylenol?

I don't know which is worse, but I agree with MG that tylenol is bad.  Drink tons of water if you take NSAIDS and don't overdose i.e. no more than 2400 mg/day but really try and take as little as you can get away with.

I personally try to avoid taking any pain killer and have some alternative stuff I use for bruises, sprains, etc.

Benko wrote: I don't know which is worse, but I agree with MG that tylenol is bad.  Drink tons of water if you take NSAIDS and don't overdose i.e. no more than 2400 mg/day but really try and take as little as you can get away with.

I personally try to avoid taking any pain killer and have some alternative stuff I use for bruises, sprains, etc.

Why do you think Tylenol is bad?  The papers MG posted were case reports and animal studies. 

AdamA wrote: Why do you think Tylenol is bad?  The papers MG posted were case reports and animal studies. 

It is "hard on the liver".  Don't even think of taking alcohol if you take it.  I don't have any references well aside from the fact that tylenol poisoning will destroy your liver.  Here , the clue is probably in here:


From web MD

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/tyle ... -poisoning

"Acetaminophen is primarily metabolized by the liver. Too much acetaminophen can overwhelm the way the liver normally functions.

If the liver is already damaged because of infection, alcohol abuse, or other illness, a person may be more susceptible to damage from acetaminophen overdose. For this reason, people with liver illnesses or people who chronically consume large amounts of alcohol should be particularly careful when taking acetaminophen and should consult their doctor prior to taking acetaminophen compounds. The FDA currently recommends that anyone taking medications that contain acetaminophen should not drink alcoholic beverages."

Benko wrote:
Too much acetaminophen can overwhelm the way the liver normally functions.

Yeah, but what's the definition of "too much"?  I think that the recommended dose doesn't come close.

I've never felt any actual pain relief from taking Tylenol.  Maybe it's just me, but it always seemed completely worthless.  Aspirin and ibuprofen work well for me.

MediumTex wrote: I've never felt any actual pain relief from taking Tylenol.  Maybe it's just me, but it always seemed completely worthless.  Aspirin and ibuprofen work well for me.

I think the bottom line is that they are all just a little better than placebo, for most things.

For me, they work well for mild traumatic injuries and also hangover headaches.

(2000-2010 - death and serious patient outcomes from FDA approved drugs) "These data describe the outcome of the patient as defined in U.S. reporting regulations (21 CFR 310.305, 314.80, 314.98, 600.80) and Forms FDA 3500 and 3500A (the MedWatch forms). Serious means that one or more of the following outcomes were documented in the report: death, hospitalization, life-threatening, disability, congenital anomaly and/or other serious outcome. Documenting one or more of these outcomes in a report does not necessarily mean that the suspect product(s) named in the report was the cause of these outcomes."

Editor's Note: These data show "deaths" totaling 452,780 and "serious outcomes" equaling 2,816,297 occurred during the eleven years from 2000 to 2010 as tabulated from the FDA's Adverse Event Reporting System for prescription drugs.

Comparing the five years (2001-2005) with the five years (2006-2010) finds that the number of deaths grew by +66.7% for the second time frame as compared to first. For the same comparative spans, serious patient leaped by almost three quarters (+77.5%).
AERS1 Patient Outcomes by Year
Year Death Serious

2000 19,445 153,818
2001 23,988 166,384
2002 28,181 159,000
2003 35,173 177,008
2004 34,928 199,510
2005 40,238 257,604
2006 37,465 265,130
2007 36,834 273,276
2008 49,958 319,741
2009 63,846 373,535
2010 82,724 471,291

Total 2000-2010 452,780 2,816,297

Total 2001-2005 162,508 959,506
Total 2006-2010 270,827 1,702,973
% Chg +66.7% +77.5%

1 AERS = Adverse Events Reporting System. This system managed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) contains over four million reports of adverse events and reflects data from 1969 to the present. Data from AERS are presented as summary statistics. These summary statistics cover data received over the last ten years. These data are presented at the individual report level; some of the numbers may reflect duplicate reporting due to factors such as follow-up reports received on a case or different persons reporting on the same patient case.
Source:
"AERS Patient Outcomes by Year," Food and Drug Administration (Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, March 31, 2010).
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceCompli ... on/Surveil...

(1998 - causes of death - adverse drug reactions) "Adverse drug reactions are a significant public health problem in our health care system. For the 12,261,737 Medicare patients admitted to U.S. hospitals, ADRs were projected to cause the following increases: 2976 deaths, 118,200 patient-days, $516,034,829 in total charges, $37,611,868 in drug charges, and $9,456,698 in laboratory charges. If all Medicare patients were considered, these figures would be 3 times greater."
Source:
C. A. Bond, PharmD, FASHP, FCCP, and Cynthia L. Raehl, PharmD, FASHP, FCCP, Department of Pharmacy Practice, School of Pharmacy, Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, Amarillo, Texas, "Adverse Drug Reactions in United States Hospitals" Pharmacotherapy, 2006;26(5):601-608.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16637789

(1996 - causes of death - NSAIDS) "Each year, use of NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs) accounts for an estimated 7,600 deaths and 76,000 hospitalizations in the United States." (NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen, naproxen, diclofenac, ketoprofen, and tiaprofenic acid.)
Source:
Robyn Tamblyn, PhD; Laeora Berkson, MD, MHPE, FRCPC; W. Dale Jauphinee, MD, FRCPC; David Gayton, MD, PhD, FRCPC; Roland Grad, MD, MSc; Allen Huang, MD, FRCPC; Lisa Isaac, PhD; Peter McLeod, MD, FRCPC; and Linda Snell, MD, MHPE, FRCPC, "Unnecessary Prescribing of NSAIDs and the Management of NSAID-Related Gastropathy in Medical Practice," Annals of Internal Medicine (Washington, DC: American College of Physicians, 1997), September 15, 1997, 127:429-438.
http://www.annals.org/content/127/6/429.full.pdf
Citing: Fries, JF, "Assessing and understanding patient risk," Scandinavian Journal of Rheumatology Supplement, 1992;92:21-4.

(1993-1999 - causes of death - emergency department visits, hospitalizations and deaths from acetaminophen-related liver injury) "... acetaminophen-related liver injury led to approximately

• 56,000 emergency department visits (1993–1999),
• 26,000 hospitalizations (1990–1999), and
• 458 deaths (1996–1998).

"Of these cases, unintentional acetaminophen overdose was associated with
• 13,000 emergency department visits (1993–1999),
• 2189 hospitalizations (1990–1999), and
• 100 deaths (1996–1998) (71 FR 77314 at 77318)."
Source:
Federal Register, "Organ-Specific Warnings; Internal Analgesic, Antipyretic, and Antirheumatic Drug Products for Over-the-Counter Human Use; Final Monograph," Vol. 74, No. 81, Wednesday, April 29, 2009, p. 19385.
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2009/pdf/E9-9684.pdf

AdamA wrote:For me, they work well for mild traumatic injuries and also hangover headaches.

Magnesium oil for mild traumatic injuries. Angostura bitters and seltzer water for hangover headaches. I guarantee both work very well and are safer than meds.

Most capable bartenders have Angostura Bitters on hand, so you can order it in the wee hours of the morning at many bars.

If you've had a big meal and you have a food coma, try drinking a teeny bottle of "Underberg" (pronounced 'Ooon-derberg') and you'll be as good as new in 5 minutes flat. They come in these little bottles that can carry in your pocket. Many restaurants in Germany have them ready to go.

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Before there were over-the-counter meds, people used to take bitters for their ailments. They are very safe — really just a very bitter alcoholic drink. The bitter taste stimulates your body to heal itself. I've got to say, it's kind of fun to down a tiny shot of firewater to fix aches and pains.

Here's a video explaining a few different bitters and how to use them to fix hangovers and digestion issues, etc.

http://youtu.be/QcCtoajm95g

What are bitters?  I understand what they do, but what is that actually in the bottle?

MediumTex wrote: What are bitters?  I understand what they do, but what is that actually in the bottle?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitters

MediumTex wrote: What are bitters?  I understand what they do, but what is that actually in the bottle?

They are herbal elixirs.

The most famous bitter — in terms of healing — is Swedish Bitters. Swedish Bitters taste pretty awful, but they purportedly fix a wide range of ailments and digestive issues. It's believed, by some, that the bitter taste — as well as the effect of the bitters — causes the liver to excrete bile, thereby cleansing the liver, which in turn allows cleaner blood to reach all of the organs. There is probably more to it than that, but that's one of the theories. However, Swedish Bitters can be used topically as well, or even as part of a compress. Certainly some placebo effect may have played a role as well. Supposedly many Europeans still keep a bottle of Swedish Bitters in their medicine cabinet as a sort of cure-all elixir.

Recently, to test it out, I had a massive headache and took a shot of Swedish Bitters to see if it would do anything. It actually got rid of the headache, though it took about an hour. Not quite as fast as a pain medicine. An other occasion I used it for some digestion issues and it worked as advertised.

Anyway, many bitters were made with closely guarded secrets. For instance, only 5 people in the world know what the recipe for Angostura Bitters is. However, some bitters recipes are well known. Anyone can make Swedish Bitters. The recipe for Swedish Bitters is:

10gm. Aloe
5 gm. Myrrh
0,2 gm Saffron
10 gm. Senna leaves
10 gm. Camphor
10 gm rhubarb roots
10 gm zedovary roots
10 gm Manna
10 gm Theriac venezian
5 gm Carline thistle roots
10 gm angelica roots

Then pour rye or fruit spirits over the herbs and steep for a few days on the counter, strain and bottle. Shake before using. The recipe was invented in the 1500s, and was widely used up until modern patented pharmaceutical medications.

But, unlike Angostura Bitters, or Underberg, you won't find Swedish Bitters in your local liquor store. Swedish Bitters can be found at Whole Foods and health food stores. It kind of tastes like an herbal gasoline, if that makes any sense.