"What is your political orientation" Poll

[Xan]

That makes a lot of sense, WiseOne.

Also, as far as that "experiment" goes: the intent of the experiment was to look suspicious so as to have the police called. Do you think this guy was acting as though he belonged, and was (let's say) walking down to the mailbox from his house? Or was he just wandering around the neighborhood walking up and down streets? Did he walk twice past the same street in short order? Would the neighbors have behaved differently for anybody they don't know walking in front of their house that way?

[yankees60]

Give it another generation and I bet that goes away too, Vinny. And, what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to find a black person and give him your house?

I'm simply responding to what I saw as an assertion that slavery is long gone and that any residual affects of racism are long gone.

I'd say from my example they continue to have affect through today and may well continue beyond another generation.

Vinny

WiseOne said there wasn't anything convincing linking "the current problems" to those long-ago situations. So I guess the question is what are the current problems?

I'm sorry if my personal example has not been clear enough. I personally have had advantages / opportunities (including financial) that my peer black group has not. Therefore it is going to be more of a problem for them, their children, their grand children than for me and my theoretical children and grand children to achieve that I have achieved.

Vinny

I'm fairly successful in monetary terms and am happily married. I'm probably better off than most people in this country.

Is that because of privilege or advantages that others don't have?

I grew up in a family that had no money, but I had the inestimable advantage of a fiercely protective mother who wouldn't let me be abused by the school system. I also had the advantage of a 160 IQ (which was partly responsible for the school system abuse, of course).

Not everyone has the first of those advantages, and almost no one has the second.

How would we level the playing field so that everyone has the same advantages that I had?

Unless you can answer that question, you aren't serious about leveling the playing field.

Wherever in the above did I say anything about "leveling the playing field"?

Some poor people have personal strengths that I do not have. I could never be compensated in any way for my lack of those strengths.

I think the term "White Supremacy" is not a good one. Until recently, this was, by far, a white country. Therefore, what went along with being white is / was the norm.

It should better be stated as "Black Penalty". It's like being a a race and the average white person is at the starting line and the average black person is somewhat back of that starting line.

Vinny

[yankees60]

You did give this similar response directed to me not that long ago. But how is a black person (a race that is been in America for 400 years) "not being from around her"?

Vinny

I'm using "not from around here" in the sense that we/they aren't part of some particular 'members only' club. I'm definitely not saying that there isn't discrimination. I am saying that there is discriminatory bias and suspicion everywhere, in every walk of life, by every race, class and culture. It is the norm of the human condition.

Yes. I can definitely agree with all of that.

Vinny

[glennds]

You did give this similar response directed to me not that long ago. But how is a black person (a race that is been in America for 400 years) "not being from around her"?

Vinny

I'm using "not from around here" in the sense that we/they aren't part of some particular 'members only' club. I'm definitely not saying that there isn't discrimination. I am saying that there is discriminatory bias and suspicion everywhere, in every walk of life, by every race, class and culture. It is the norm of the human condition.

Mark, your assertion has not been my experience. I am a visible minority, neither black nor white, but rather from India. Although I have grown up and been educated in the West, partly in the UK and Canada, but mostly in the US. I have been to three of the four example places you listed, the exception being Popeye's in New Jersey (now added to my bucket list though). As you correctly predict, in each setting I was the only visibly different person among the local crowd. However, I am fortunate to report that I was treated well in each place, never the victim of negative discriminatory bias or suspicion, unless I was just too dense to notice.

As a child I grew up in a multicultural city in a district right in between an Italian area and a Jewish area. So most of my friends were either Italian or Jewish, and when we played together, their families took me into their homes, treated me like one of their kids, introduced me to food and treats that I had never seen. When I was a teenager we moved to the SW US and I had a similar experience with Hispanics. In fact, I got invited to Hispanic neighborhood parties and weddings, and my friends' Abuelitas treated me like their own grandson and usually tried to kill me with food. My best friend in high school was black and his immediate family took me into their world in the same way. And there was that time I got stranded due to storms while on a backpacking trip and the Navajo took us in. As a result of my these experiences I can only have a very high opinion of Italians, Jews, Blacks, Native Americans and especially Hispanics.

No doubt, I've probably been shaped by my childhood environment, but even when traveling in other countries, I have always been treated so well, and I find it only takes a few moments to make eye contact, show a little interest, and learn how great other people can be and how costly it can be to buy into negative stereotypes. Maybe I've just been lucky. Maybe I'm privileged for being Indian, because if I were white these minorities might have killed me off in seconds (catch that sarcasm).

Japan is an interesting place. I lived there for six months. Yes, the country is 98% homogeneously Japanese. But as a gaijin foreigner I was never treated in a derogatory way, in fact the Japanese people were absolutely courteous, charming even. At the time my 10 year old daughter was going through a phase where she would refuse to tie her shoelaces. The Japanese fixed that because we could only be on the street for 30 seconds before someone would walk up, smile and point to her shoes expressing concern that she might trip and hurt herself.

I offer this story in support of two points.
First, I have learned there is a immigrant/minority hierarchy. Indians rank fairly high on this ladder being typically associated with doctors, tech workers, academics, and at worst convenience store clerks or taxi drivers. Rarely ever with terrorism, drug trafficking, illegal immigration or violent crime. This tends to make me the beneficiary of positive discrimination whether I have personally earned it or not. Maybe not as fortunate as being white, but a good lottery ticket nonetheless. A black person is at the bottom of this ladder and while some might say, "they" have brought it on themselves due to their own vices, this attitude paints an entire group with one brush invariably resulting in countless unfair casualties. Maybe it makes a difference if you have one or more black friends and you feel they deserve better than drawing a loser lottery ticket that they will have to work to overcome.
If you look deep, maybe you can find a little empathy rooted in gratitude for your own good fortune.

Second, on a self-interest level there are real opportunities to enrich your own life or business if you are willing to not let negative stereotypes obstruct you. In my case, if I had let discrimination get in the way, I would have been much more isolated and left a lot of life experience (and at least one business opportunity) on the table. Yes, you have a point that people often have trepidation over someone who looks unfamiliar, not one of their own. But then it's on you to either reinforce that trepidation, or diffuse it, which I say can be done in minutes, maybe even seconds with 99% of people, the 1% being only the most hateful or backward.
Sorry for the long post, and I hope this is a positive message!

[Mark Leavy]

Mark, your assertion has not been my experience. I am a visible minority, neither black nor white, but rather from India. Although I have grown up and been educated in the West, partly in the UK and Canada, but mostly in the US. I have been to three of the four example places you listed, the exception being Popeye's in New Jersey (now added to my bucket list though). As you correctly predict, in each setting I was the only visibly different person among the local crowd. However, I am fortunate to report that I was treated well in each place, never the victim of negative discriminatory bias or suspicion, unless I was just too dense to notice.

Yes, in the US we generally are polite and respectful to anyone offering the same in return. I didn't mean to suggest you would face blatant racism. Just not the same level of acceptance as the locals. And not necessarily based on skin color.

Which castes are you openly accepted into when you are in India? If you are Brahmin, you don't get to say, "Why, they all welcome me. Why do you ask?" Or, "What do you mean? The caste system has long been abolished in India..."

[Libertarian666]

Give it another generation and I bet that goes away too, Vinny. And, what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to find a black person and give him your house?

I'm simply responding to what I saw as an assertion that slavery is long gone and that any residual affects of racism are long gone.

I'd say from my example they continue to have affect through today and may well continue beyond another generation.

Vinny

WiseOne said there wasn't anything convincing linking "the current problems" to those long-ago situations. So I guess the question is what are the current problems?

I'm sorry if my personal example has not been clear enough. I personally have had advantages / opportunities (including financial) that my peer black group has not. Therefore it is going to be more of a problem for them, their children, their grand children than for me and my theoretical children and grand children to achieve that I have achieved.

Vinny

I'm fairly successful in monetary terms and am happily married. I'm probably better off than most people in this country.

Is that because of privilege or advantages that others don't have?

I grew up in a family that had no money, but I had the inestimable advantage of a fiercely protective mother who wouldn't let me be abused by the school system. I also had the advantage of a 160 IQ (which was partly responsible for the school system abuse, of course).

Not everyone has the first of those advantages, and almost no one has the second.

How would we level the playing field so that everyone has the same advantages that I had?

Unless you can answer that question, you aren't serious about leveling the playing field.

Wherever in the above did I say anything about "leveling the playing field"?

Some poor people have personal strengths that I do not have. I could never be compensated in any way for my lack of those strengths.

I think the term "White Supremacy" is not a good one. Until recently, this was, by far, a white country. Therefore, what went along with being white is / was the norm.

It should better be stated as "Black Penalty". It's like being a a race and the average white person is at the starting line and the average black person is somewhat back of that starting line.

Vinny

Ok, so if you're not proposing or supporting the idea that white people should be forced to do anything to make up for the black penalty, just noting that there is a statistical difference between the two situations, that's fine.

However, many leftists and even people calling themselves moderates are in favor of "reparations" or other forced payments from whites to blacks. I'm completely against that for what I hope are obvious reasons.

[glennds]

Mark, your assertion has not been my experience. I am a visible minority, neither black nor white, but rather from India. Although I have grown up and been educated in the West, partly in the UK and Canada, but mostly in the US. I have been to three of the four example places you listed, the exception being Popeye's in New Jersey (now added to my bucket list though). As you correctly predict, in each setting I was the only visibly different person among the local crowd. However, I am fortunate to report that I was treated well in each place, never the victim of negative discriminatory bias or suspicion, unless I was just too dense to notice.

Yes, in the US we generally are polite and respectful to anyone offering the same in return. I didn't mean to suggest you would face blatant racism. Just not the same level of acceptance as the locals. And not necessarily based on skin color.

Which castes are you openly accepted into when you are in India? If you are Brahmin, you don't get to say, "Why, they all welcome me. Why do you ask?" Or, "What do you mean? The caste system has long been abolished in India..."

I'm pretty much exempt from the caste system in India. The caste system is a Hindu construct and I come from a state that has been Catholic for about 500 years, a Portuguese colony at one time. That, plus my status as an expat place me in an exempt category.

The caste system is a complicated story. Very rooted in Indian culture, which itself is very rooted in Hinduistic tradition, even more these days thanks to the brand of populism of the Modi government and the Hindification movement. But caste is also an institution that does an effective job of stifling India and keeping it backward.
Generally speaking in India, the lower you go down the socioeconomic and education ladder, the more caste matters. Which is to say the more ignorant the environment, the more discrimination seems to thrive.

[Mark Leavy]

I'm pretty much exempt from the caste system in India. The caste system is a Hindu construct and I come from a state that has been Catholic for about 500 years, a Portuguese colony at one time. That, plus my status as an expat place me in an exempt category.

The caste system is a complicated story. Very rooted in Indian culture, which itself is very rooted in Hinduistic tradition, even more these days thanks to the brand of populism of the Modi government and the Hindification movement. But caste is also an institution that does an effective job of stifling India and keeping it backward.
Generally speaking in India, the lower you go down the socioeconomic and education ladder, the more caste matters. Which is to say the more ignorant the environment, the more discrimination seems to thrive.

Fantastic answer. Thank you. Very much appreciated.
Mark

[Xan]

glennds,

Thanks for telling us about your fascinating background.

Are you Catholic yourself? Do you think that might have given you a leg up with at least the Italians and the Hispanics?

[glennds]

glennds,

Thanks for telling us about your fascinating background.

Are you Catholic yourself? Do you think that might have given you a leg up with at least the Italians and the Hispanics?

Hi,
Yes I am Catholic. Now that you mention it, yes, being so was a point in common with Italians and Hispanics. Especially Hispanics, because if you go far back enough in my part of India, we were probably indigenous Hindu villagers until the Portuguese showed up with the missionaries who converted everyone, just like what happened with the Spanish in Mexico. Even the country churches and chapels are a lot like what you see in Mexico if you drive through small towns. I haven't been to the Philippines, but I'm betting the same would be the case there.

However, being Catholic didn't ever present as an issue with my Jewish friends. But then I was like 7 years old, so we were just kids going to each other's houses to play and the most exotic part of it might have been limited to unfamiliar food. We weren't old enough to be thinking about things like culture or religion. What I do remember was that the Italian food was crazy good at Peter and Domenic's houses. The Italian moms were beautiful too, and would kiss all of us when we arrived and left, which was a major thrill.

[glennds]

I'm pretty much exempt from the caste system in India. The caste system is a Hindu construct and I come from a state that has been Catholic for about 500 years, a Portuguese colony at one time. That, plus my status as an expat place me in an exempt category.

The caste system is a complicated story. Very rooted in Indian culture, which itself is very rooted in Hinduistic tradition, even more these days thanks to the brand of populism of the Modi government and the Hindification movement. But caste is also an institution that does an effective job of stifling India and keeping it backward.
Generally speaking in India, the lower you go down the socioeconomic and education ladder, the more caste matters. Which is to say the more ignorant the environment, the more discrimination seems to thrive.

Fantastic answer. Thank you. Very much appreciated.
Mark

Mark, where the caste system is most potent unfortunately, is for the Dalits (untouchables). The other castes are mainly shades of grey differences in a complicated hierarchy that I don't even fully understand. But I know that the Dalits are in a completely separate inferior class by birth, and this inferiority will follow them around in India for life. For the rare one that can overcome obstacles and access higher education or financial success, it helps, but they are still a Dalit and in the company of orthodox hindus or in the villages, it will shackle them with an unfortunate stigma.

When I say I'm exempt, it does not mean in a positive or negative way, just neutral. Most expats will be assumed to be privileged because in order to have emigrated overseas it takes privilege. Except for Dalits that go to places like the Gulf states as contract unskilled workers.

What your earlier comment implied was correct. Technically the caste system was abolished in 1950 after India's independence. But the tradition is deeply embedded in Indian culture so it is alive and well in practice, just less intense in the more sophisticated cities and circles.

So while racial tension is a problem in the US, but India has no business criticizing anyone else because it is one of the most racist countries in the world save for some of the Middle Eastern countries perhaps. Gender discrimination against women too. Skin color is an issue, lighter=better, darker=not so good.
It's a great country in many respects, full of entrepreneurial energy and brilliant talent. But until infrastructure issues and societal issues like these can be resolved, it will be hard for India to truly join the ranks of the first world industrialized countries. If that day comes, it will be a force to be reckoned with.

[Mark Leavy]

Mark, where the caste system is most potent unfortunately, is for the Dalits (untouchables). The other castes are mainly shades of grey differences in a complicated hierarchy that I don't even fully understand. But I know that the Dalits are in a completely separate inferior class by birth, and this inferiority will follow them around in India for life. For the rare one that can overcome obstacles and access higher education or financial success, it helps, but they are still a Dalit and in the company of orthodox hindus or in the villages, it will shackle them with an unfortunate stigma.

When I say I'm exempt, it does not mean in a positive or negative way, just neutral. Most expats will be assumed to be privileged because in order to have emigrated overseas it takes privilege. Except for Dalits that go to places like the Gulf states as contract unskilled workers.

What your earlier comment implied was correct. Technically the caste system was abolished in 1950 after India's independence. But the tradition is deeply embedded in Indian culture so it is alive and well in practice, just less intense in the more sophisticated cities and circles.

So while racial tension is a problem in the US, but India has no business criticizing anyone else because it is one of the most racist countries in the world save for some of the Middle Eastern countries perhaps. Gender discrimination against women too. Skin color is an issue, lighter=better, darker=not so good.
It's a great country in many respects, full of entrepreneurial energy and brilliant talent. But until infrastructure issues and societal issues like these can be resolved, it will be hard for India to truly join the ranks of the first world industrialized countries. If that day comes, it will be a force to be reckoned with.

A lot of wisdom there, glennds. I see the same thing from a different window. Of the five or six serious mentors that I have had in my life, three of them were Brahmin. And we hired Punjabis to do the scut work.

Since then I have worked a lot in the Middle East. Untouchables and Philippines did the scut work there. I watched a tent village burn down when a cooking fire went awry. Oh well. The next truck will bring in replacements...

Thank you so much for your comments. Honesty is a rare commodity.
Mark