Gyroscopic Investing

IBIT is the most liquid

i think for a general investor, IBIT is easiest and safest.

I don't think crypto exchanges like coinbase are particularly safe. I cold wallets are a good problem holding the seed keys.

The issue is even bank safety deposit boxes in the US. I saw in the news that people have lost items in them, and they aren't insured.


Until they come up with a inexpensive biometric vault. that one can trust just use ETF.

frugal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 28, 2025 5:36 pm Hello, everyone

I’m currently looking into ways to invest in Bitcoin through ETFs, and I’m mostly interested in spot Bitcoin ETFs.

These ETFs directly hold Bitcoin and aim to follow its price as closely as possible. Some examples I’ve found are:
• IBIT – iShares Bitcoin Trust
• FBTC – Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund
• ARKB – ARK 21Shares Bitcoin ETF

Since these are physically backed, they seem simpler and more transparent than other options like futures or crypto company stocks.

I’d like to hear your thoughts:
• Are you using any of these spot Bitcoin ETFs?
• How has your experience been so far?
• Any risks or practical points I should be aware of, especially for investors based in Europe?

Thanks in advance for any insights you can share.

var wrote: ↑Wed Jul 09, 2025 11:24 pm IBIT is the most liquid

i think for a general investor, IBIT is easiest and safest.

I don't think crypto exchanges like coinbase are particularly safe. I cold wallets are a good problem holding the seed keys.

The issue is even bank safety deposit boxes in the US. I saw in the news that people have lost items in them, and they aren't insured.


Until they come up with a inexpensive biometric vault. that one can trust just use ETF.

frugal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 28, 2025 5:36 pm Hello, everyone

I’m currently looking into ways to invest in Bitcoin through ETFs, and I’m mostly interested in spot Bitcoin ETFs.

These ETFs directly hold Bitcoin and aim to follow its price as closely as possible. Some examples I’ve found are:
• IBIT – iShares Bitcoin Trust
• FBTC – Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund
• ARKB – ARK 21Shares Bitcoin ETF

Since these are physically backed, they seem simpler and more transparent than other options like futures or crypto company stocks.

I’d like to hear your thoughts:
• Are you using any of these spot Bitcoin ETFs?
• How has your experience been so far?
• Any risks or practical points I should be aware of, especially for investors based in Europe?

Thanks in advance for any insights you can share.

Hi @var,

I fully agree with your points — especially regarding IBIT being the most liquid spot Bitcoin ETF available right now. Liquidity really matters for tight spreads and better trade execution.

For a general investor, especially those following something like the Permanent Portfolio, IBIT is probably the easiest and safest way to get Bitcoin exposure without the hassles and risks of self-custody or using crypto exchanges.

Security Concerns
I share your concerns about crypto exchanges like Coinbase. It’s important to differentiate between:

Coinbase Exchange (the retail platform, with usual risks)

Coinbase Custody Trust (regulated, institutional-grade custodian used by IBIT and others)

IBIT uses the latter, meaning the Bitcoin is held in cold storage, under regulatory oversight, with insurance and audits. It’s far safer than holding crypto directly on an exchange or mishandling private keys in cold wallets — which, as you say, are only safe if you’re confident managing the seed keys correctly.

And yes, bank safety deposit boxes have their own issues — lack of insurance and possible loss — so your point is well taken.

Fees and Costs
Regarding costs:

IBIT (BlackRock/iShares):

Expense ratio of 0.25%, currently waived down to 0.12% for the first $5 billion or 12 months

FBTC (Fidelity):

0.25%, waived to 0.0% for the first $1 billion or 6 months

ARKB (ARK 21Shares):

0.21%, temporarily waived to 0.0%

These fees are very competitive, especially compared to European alternatives like BTCetc or 21Shares, which often charge near or above 1%.

Notes for European Investors
IBIT and similar U.S. ETFs are not UCITS-compliant, so many European brokers won’t offer them to retail clients.

Accessing them via international brokers (like Interactive Brokers) is possible but be aware of:

Complex tax reporting

Currency risk (USD exposure)

Possible PFIC tax implications in some EU countries

Conclusion
For most general investors, especially those wanting a simple, safe way to hold BTC exposure, IBIT is a strong choice. It avoids the pitfalls of self-custody and the risks of exchange wallets.

Until secure, affordable, biometric vaults become widespread, spot Bitcoin ETFs remain the most practical solution.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Would be great to hear from other European investors on how they navigate these ETFs or find affordable UCITS-compliant alternatives.

All the best!

You can also self custody and use a long passphrase as a way of creating a 2 of 2 with multiple redundancies.

A private key is 32 bytes, what's not to stop random 32 bytes private keys being generated and then applied across the entire blockchain to see if it opens up any addresses, rinse and repeat continually and surely by chance/luck it will periodically strike it lucky

seajay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 12:09 pm A private key is 32 bytes, what's not to stop random 32 bytes private keys being generated and then applied across the entire blockchain to see if it opens up any addresses, rinse and repeat continually and surely by chance/luck it will periodically strike it lucky

Have at it I don’t think you’re going to get very far.

dualstow wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 1:03 pm

seajay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 12:09 pm A private key is 32 bytes, what's not to stop random 32 bytes private keys being generated and then applied across the entire blockchain to see if it opens up any addresses, rinse and repeat continually and surely by chance/luck it will periodically strike it lucky

Have at it I don’t think you’re going to get very far.

Under linear/serial. But with AI/quantum

Presumably encryption/key (and hence network) methods will have to be enhanced to cater for that. Wondering about how do you secure a long term 'deposit' into crypto where that can be retrieved in 10, 20, whatever years time. Presumably you can't just create a paper wallet, deposit say $10,000 for a new born grandchild and lock away the private key in a safe until they're 18 and expect that value to be accessible anymore.

I wonder if anything will be safe from quantum cracks.
I have a feeling my brokerage house will be the last ones to adopt suitable defense measures.

New ATH for BTC!

Regarding the quantum discussion: I personally think it's safe to say that Bitcoin will likely be vulnerable to quantum attacks from sufficiently powerful systems sometime on the horizon.

From what I understand however, the fix is pretty simple. The Bitcoin protocol can be updated without a hard fork to include quantum resistant addresses. All Bitcoin users must transfer their coins to a quantum resistant address before a certain block height. Once that block height is reached, all coins that have not been migrated become simply become unspendable.

Don't worry, it's not a hard fork, it's just your money will vanish unless you jump through some hoops.

Xan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 06, 2025 2:10 pm Don't worry, it's not a hard fork, it's just your money will vanish unless you jump through some hoops.

lmao touche!

Smith1776 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 06, 2025 1:53 pm Regarding the quantum discussion: I personally think it's safe to say that Bitcoin will likely be vulnerable to quantum attacks from sufficiently powerful systems sometime on the horizon.

From what I understand however, the fix is pretty simple. The Bitcoin protocol can be updated without a hard fork to include quantum resistant addresses. All Bitcoin users must transfer their coins to a quantum resistant address before a certain block height. Once that block height is reached, all coins that have not been migrated become simply become unspendable.

Good thing there will be plenty of block space for people to do this. If the fees are higher than what you have in the address, it's also unspendable.

var wrote: ↑Wed Jul 09, 2025 11:24 pm IBIT is the most liquid

i think for a general investor, IBIT is easiest and safest.

I don't think crypto exchanges like coinbase are particularly safe. I cold wallets are a good problem holding the seed keys.

The issue is even bank safety deposit boxes in the US. I saw in the news that people have lost items in them, and they aren't insured.


Until they come up with a inexpensive biometric vault. that one can trust just use ETF.

frugal wrote: ↑Sat Jun 28, 2025 5:36 pm Hello, everyone

I’m currently looking into ways to invest in Bitcoin through ETFs, and I’m mostly interested in spot Bitcoin ETFs.

These ETFs directly hold Bitcoin and aim to follow its price as closely as possible. Some examples I’ve found are:
• IBIT – iShares Bitcoin Trust
• FBTC – Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund
• ARKB – ARK 21Shares Bitcoin ETF

Since these are physically backed, they seem simpler and more transparent than other options like futures or crypto company stocks.

I’d like to hear your thoughts:
• Are you using any of these spot Bitcoin ETFs?
• How has your experience been so far?
• Any risks or practical points I should be aware of, especially for investors based in Europe?

Thanks in advance for any insights you can share.

So, I was going to start with a little into BitCoin (goal eventually up to maybe 5% for 'alternatives shoot for the moon' allocation).

And yes, this is the sign that BitCoin is going to crash

SELL!

I'd be purchasing through Fidelity Brokerage

Does that change the recommendation on using IBIT (iShares Bitcoin Trust) over FBTC (Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund)?

A quick google search recommended IBIT

I bought a little IBIT

Plan to do quarterly purchases

Guess it's time for it all to come crashing down

Not anytime soon, wealth exodus from China may accelerate

See, the sky is falling, IBIT lost close to 2% today / the day after I invested

Anyone who shorted it, you are welcome



(and yes, I went into it expecting high volatility, so, not surprised or angst ridden )

We need a ‘Dieter’s Ride’ thread

Dieter wrote: ↑Wed Oct 08, 2025 11:57 am I bought a little IBIT

Plan to do quarterly purchases

Guess it's time for it all to come crashing down

Hi

Nice move on starting small and scaling in with quarterly buys — that’s a solid way to build a position over time.

Curious though… why did you decide to go with IBIT instead of self-custody?

From a tax perspective, ETFs are usually less efficient (at least in many jurisdictions), and you don’t actually own the underlying asset directly. With self-custody, you’d typically avoid some of that drag and also control the asset yourself.

Also, why not buy directly through a bank or crypto exchange? Was it mainly for simplicity / convenience, or do you have a specific tax or compliance reason for choosing the ETF route?

Just scheduled a time to have my lawn aerated, and the guy said he'd give me a 10% discount for paying in bitcoin. He says it's going to $202k soon.

So I told him "Well if that's true then I guess I'll be paying in cash!"

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:50 am Just scheduled a time to have my lawn aerated, and the guy said he'd give me a 10% discount for paying in bitcoin. He says it's going to $202k soon.

So I told him "Well if that's true then I guess I'll be paying in cash!"

lol!

frugal wrote: ↑Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:21 am

Dieter wrote: ↑Wed Oct 08, 2025 11:57 am I bought a little IBIT

Plan to do quarterly purchases

Guess it's time for it all to come crashing down

Hi

Nice move on starting small and scaling in with quarterly buys — that’s a solid way to build a position over time.

Curious though… why did you decide to go with IBIT instead of self-custody?

From a tax perspective, ETFs are usually less efficient (at least in many jurisdictions), and you don’t actually own the underlying asset directly. With self-custody, you’d typically avoid some of that drag and also control the asset yourself.

Also, why not buy directly through a bank or crypto exchange? Was it mainly for simplicity / convenience, or do you have a specific tax or compliance reason for choosing the ETF route?

It's in a tax advantaged account, so, no worries about taxes

Going with an ETF was so much easier -- I've purchased ETFs before, so, just had to make the decision to buy crypto.
And taxable vs IRA\401(k)
And decide which (Bitcoin vs Etherium vs ...).
And then how (Exchange vs ETC)
Then which ETF

Aka, didn't want to also at this time figure out a crypto exchange

Figuring out a crypto exchange might be a future exercise now that I've dipped my toes into crypto

(although also maybe to get some physical silver \ gold being another todo)



Damn, another down day (so far) for IBIT.

And the overall US stock market.

The times are getting even more interesting
(albeit not surprising)

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:50 am Just scheduled a time to have my lawn aerated, and the guy said he'd give me a 10% discount for paying in bitcoin. He says it's going to $202k soon.

So I told him "Well if that's true then I guess I'll be paying in cash!"

202, that’s very specific

dualstow wrote: ↑Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:48 am

flyingpylon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 10, 2025 9:50 am Just scheduled a time to have my lawn aerated, and the guy said he'd give me a 10% discount for paying in bitcoin. He says it's going to $202k soon.

So I told him "Well if that's true then I guess I'll be paying in cash!"

202, that’s very specific

Yes well you see he's built his own prediction model and claims that he's usually pretty accurate. Says $202k is the short-term top. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He's a bit of a character, but he does a good job on the lawn for a reasonable price!

LOL