Coronavirus General Discussion

[WiseOne]

I think the mayors and governors have had the rather unenviable job of trying to balance an appropriate response with the economic and personal damage that the responses will cause. I do think it's ridiculous that schools have been feeding so many poor kids, because...geez, in what way is that not the parents' job? If the parents can't or won't feed their kids then frankly the kids need to go into foster care. But, the child care issue is for real.

It's so easy to second guess them, but until I have to make decisions like that I'm not inclined to. Although, it's annoying that while they don't want armchair critics, they're happy to critique the Trump administration for not doing things they would like them to do, e.g. mandate nationwide school/restaurant closures. Doesn't occur to them that some might think local governments are in the best position to make those decisions, and that centralized/government actions are not always the most efficient way to do things. Andrew Cuomo, for example, was calling yesterday for the US military to come in and take over hospitals. I can't imagine how that is a good idea.

[shekels]

This is a fuzzy request, but can people on the forum with a longer tail of experience than me share their thoughts on this:

How does this period feel compared to 2008/2009? Yes, I can see the stock market numbers, I can see some old forum posts, but it's not the same as being there.

In 2008/2009 I was just starting college and I was blind to everything going on from an investment perspective. How does the atmosphere compare to you guys?

From a stock market standpoint my perspective is it is about the same.
The crowd is looking at the drop in the market and their 401's going down the tube and freaking out.
they are not sure with way to turn. Buy, Sell, or Cry.
I remember when Lehman Bros was being liquidated, I looked at my son and asked if he had ever seen so much panic in people.
It was like watching a slow motion car wreck to see what Banks were next.

[dualstow]

Just to be clear, I merely posed the question without endorsing action.

Sorry, yes. I should have written, "...but then I lean toward the other side of it in the dilemma posed by Xan."

[dualstow]

parents can't or won't feed their kids then frankly the kids need to go into foster care.

I'm always curious about this. I'm not qualified to comment on it, but whenever I hear statements about how the kids are depending on these lunches, dark thoughts run through my head that maybe their mom and dad should stop having more kids if that's really the case. And cancel that cell phone unless you're a contractor using it for work. And cigarettes and lotto tickets.

Maybe let the kids file through for lunch and send them back home? For the time being, I mean.

[Xan]

parents can't or won't feed their kids then frankly the kids need to go into foster care.

I'm always curious about this. I'm not qualified to comment on it, but whenever I hear statements about how the kids are depending on these lunches, dark thoughts run through my head that maybe their mom and dad should stop having more kids if that's really the case. And cancel that cell phone unless you're a contractor using it for work. And cigarettes and lotto tickets.

Maybe let the kids file through for lunch and send them back home? For the time being, I mean.

Our school district set up some drive-through school lunch dropoffs during the unexpected closed day, last Friday. They plan to do the same for the two weeks following this week. Basically, whenever the schools were closed unexpectedly. This is only happening in areas where "enough" people qualified for free/reduced-cost meals.

Definitely agree on it being weird for the schools to be in charge of feeding people. On one hand, if kids are coming to school hungry, they aren't learning and they're having major problems, so I certainly see the motivation to do something. And the school has a cafeteria so all the ingredients (so to speak) are there. But it can't be a good thing for this to be a way of life for so many.

[pmward]

Another day, another round of stimulus announced. Fed is now backing stopping corporate paper markets, and it looks like we have some helicopter money coming in the next 2 weeks. They are doing the "whatever it takes" that I knew they would in an election year.

[shekels]

parents can't or won't feed their kids then frankly the kids need to go into foster care.

I'm always curious about this. I'm not qualified to comment on it, but whenever I hear statements about how the kids are depending on these lunches, dark thoughts run through my head that maybe their mom and dad should stop having more kids if that's really the case. And cancel that cell phone unless you're a contractor using it for work. And cigarettes and lotto tickets.

Maybe let the kids file through for lunch and send them back home? For the time being, I mean.

Our school district set up some drive-through school lunch dropoffs during the unexpected closed day, last Friday. They plan to do the same for the two weeks following this week. Basically, whenever the schools were closed unexpectedly. This is only happening in areas where "enough" people qualified for free/reduced-cost meals.

Definitely agree on it being weird for the schools to be in charge of feeding people. On one hand, if kids are coming to school hungry, they aren't learning and they're having major problems, so I certainly see the motivation to do something. And the school has a cafeteria so all the ingredients (so to speak) are there. But it can't be a good thing for this to be a way of life for so many.

Rhetorical Question
How did children eat 50 years ago?
Schools feeding children is a symptom to a much bigger condition.

[shekels]

That's something of an exaggeration. It's better than the traditional methods of stirring up animal spirits.

I see where you're going with this, and no, I haven't tried homebrewing since my botched rhubarb-wine attempt.

I used to make wine with my dad when I was a kid. I was responsible for the grape mushing with my feet.

I will never forget how weird that felt between my toes.

You are only the second person I've ever had contact with who has done that. The first was my father who told me he did that as a kid when he was growing up in Southern Italy (within sight of Pompei / Mt Vesuvius).

He and my mother once made some alcohol thing in our bathtub. Never knew whether the outcome was good or bad. But that was the only time that they did do it.

Vinny

Making wine is much easier these days. You can order the whole kit in a box.
Just need a container to brew it in.
Brewing Beer is also Good.But the 1st bottle of beer you brew is the most expensive.

[dualstow]

Making wine is much easier these days. You can order the whole kit in a box.
Just need a container to brew it in.

But then it doesn't have that rich toenail goodness.

[Smith1776]

If we impose a lock down on the country for 18 months and save 2.2 million lives...

Are the lives lost due to economic hardship included in that calculation? The suicides from lack of income? What about the general human suffering that would cause? Is torpedoing 1000 peoples' livelihoods worth, say, 1 death?

This all reminds me of this scene from The Big Short.

https://youtu.be/0k5aVLi_yhM

[WiseOne]

Just got a little more real here. One of our nurse practitioners is home sick with COVID. If she was contagious last week, my entire division (me included) has been exposed.

She is doing ok last I heard. And I'm perfectly fine right now thanks. I won't let my mom come visit for the next week or so though.

[Smith1776]

Just got a little more real here. One of our nurse practitioners is home sick with COVID. If she was contagious last week, my entire division (me included) has been exposed.

She is doing ok last I heard. And I'm perfectly fine right now thanks. I won't let my mom come visit for the next week or so though.

Keep yourself safe, WiseOne.

I've been hearing reports about how this virus can permanently damage male reproductive organs. To your knowledge is there any truth to this idea?

[WiseOne]

Not heard anything like that, but I wouldn't be shocked. There is a systemic, multi-organ inflammation that's been reported...don't know much else about it, there's been nothing mentioned in the NY DOH or CDC reports I get several times a day.

[Smith1776]

Not heard anything like that, but I wouldn't be shocked. There is a systemic, multi-organ inflammation that's been reported...don't know much else about it, there's been nothing mentioned in the NY DOH or CDC reports I get several times a day.

F*CK.

Now I'm much more scared than I was before...

[flyingpylon]

Okay, I'll pose the question: is it worth destroying our economy for 18 months to prevent 2.2 million deaths? The answer may well be yes, and in fact I'm not arguing that we shouldn't, but I think it's a point worth discussing. Remember it isn't just about money; these are people's livelihoods, in fact ALL of our livelihoods, at stake. And it isn't just our economy suffering during these times: it's our very society, our social cohesion, it's friendships and church families and school communities and you name it.

Karl Denninger seems to have an opinion about this.

What Trump is Doing WILL Fail

[dualstow]

Yes, do take care, WiseOne.

I've been hearing reports about how this virus can permanently damage male reproductive organs. To your knowledge is there any truth to this idea?

Real or not, it would certainly get young people to stay home, wouldn't it.

A thought: when Trudeau closed Canada's borders to the world (minus U.S.), he effectively sealed the fate of a lot of people fleeing violence in places like Honduras. Don't get me wrong. I would have sealed those borders a long time ago. And, we don't know how many people are going to be murdered who might have had a chance to flee if the virus hadn't emerged. But for me, it's an easy choice: he put the lives and the well-being of people who are already in Canada first.

That's kind of what Trump is doing in being stricter on immigration, isn't it? He's just judged differently because of xenophobic comments like "shithole countries". But maybe the actions are not that different.

[dualstow]

P.S. Rest easy Smithers. You can go out and get laid. Just wait until September, maybe. Same goes for the gym, restaurants and anything fun. Just because it's open, doesn't mean it's safe.

↳ https://www.bionews.org.uk/page_148559

[yankees60]

My local update....

1) We had a staff meeting. Five people were in our conference room thinking that they were maintaining proper distance. I refused to join them and stayed in my office, listening to the meeting, semi-participating, while I was initiating getting payroll done. All the other participants (five) were off-site). The youngest person on our staff (about 24 years old) was beyond exasperated that these five boomers were all together in the conference room, that they just didn't get this isolation thing. She was the hero of the day in my eyes and I think her messages actually got through to some of the people in that room.

2) Went to my local Stop & Shop about 3:45 PM. Parking lot not that full. Seeing people walking out with small quantities, nothing special. Headed towards the frozen foods to stock up on my bags of mixed broccoli, cauliflower, carrots. I was not surprised to see the paper goods aisle wiped out. Nor was I surprised to see bread was low. However, I was totally surprised and SHOCKED to see that the frozen vegetables were totally wiped out!!! There was nothing left in there for me to buy of anything!

I headed to the section where I normally buy the bulk of my food - fruit and vegetables. I asked a guy who was stocking there which day the store got wiped out of the frozen vegetables. He stated that on Friday almost the whole store got wiped out. He said, though, that the fruit and vegetables section remained the most well stocked.

I ended up spending $145 on fruits and vegetables that will either be consumed in the next week or last in my kitchen or refrigerator for the next two to three weeks.

This morning when I was in front of a bank teller for a few minutes was my first presence with another human since last Thursday night. Now that I'm home and fully stocked who knows when I will next be in the presence of another human!

One bright side of this is that I brought home my office gerbil. The poor gerbil has been without a friend for too many months now after its friend had died. All rodents are highly social creatures.

I have ten other gerbils in my house and I think I can predict with 100% certainty that when that gerbil goes back to my office it will have a friend with it so that they can do all the endearing behaviors that all rodents do with one other, e.g., grooming one another, sleeping all scrunched up on top of one another...

Vinny

[Smith1776]

P.S. Rest easy Smithers. You can go out and get laid. Just wait until September, maybe. Same goes for the gym, restaurants and anything fun. Just because it's open, doesn't mean it's safe.

↳ https://www.bionews.org.uk/page_148559

I know I probably shouldn't, but I am extremely torn and on the fence about potentially going to my local health club for a workout tonight.

Yes it's a dicey proposition, maybe even irresponsible, but the idea of letting my body atrophy in the coming weeks is kind of unbearable. You work so hard to progress your fitness, only to see retrogression based on factors totally out of your control. (First world problems, I know, I know.)

Aughgahghgh.

This forum is one of the few things that are actually keeping me sane still.

EDIT: Looks like the gym I had in mind is implementing a distancing protocol. There's also stockpiles of hand sanitizer and wipes for people.

EDIT 2: I have a friend who works at the local shopping mall. This is what the food court looks like.

IMG_0498.jpeg (666.04 KiB) Viewed 5713 times

[yankees60]

Always interesting updates, WiseOne.

Wow.

Okay, I'll pose the question: is it worth destroying our economy for 18 months to prevent 2.2 million deaths? The answer may well be yes, and in fact I'm not arguing that we shouldn't, but I think it's a point worth discussing.
...

Depends on which 2.2 million, specifically.

But seriously, I guess that’s a question for the experts, and only the experts.

Yes, but are the experts making the calls? Or are the politicians?

Who are "the experts"? And, in regards to decision making, has it ever been documented that "experts" are any more skilled at it? Everything I've read in that regard, including at least one book, says that they are not.

Vinny

[yankees60]

I think the mayors and governors have had the rather unenviable job of trying to balance an appropriate response with the economic and personal damage that the responses will cause. I do think it's ridiculous that schools have been feeding so many poor kids, because...geez, in what way is that not the parents' job? If the parents can't or won't feed their kids then frankly the kids need to go into foster care. But, the child care issue is for real.

It's so easy to second guess them, but until I have to make decisions like that I'm not inclined to. Although, it's annoying that while they don't want armchair critics, they're happy to critique the Trump administration for not doing things they would like them to do, e.g. mandate nationwide school/restaurant closures. Doesn't occur to them that some might think local governments are in the best position to make those decisions, and that centralized/government actions are not always the most efficient way to do things. Andrew Cuomo, for example, was calling yesterday for the US military to come in and take over hospitals. I can't imagine how that is a good idea.

I thought he was calling for the Army Corp of Engineers to build more hospital space because "that is what they do"?

Vinny

[yankees60]

parents can't or won't feed their kids then frankly the kids need to go into foster care.

I'm always curious about this. I'm not qualified to comment on it, but whenever I hear statements about how the kids are depending on these lunches, dark thoughts run through my head that maybe their mom and dad should stop having more kids if that's really the case. And cancel that cell phone unless you're a contractor using it for work. And cigarettes and lotto tickets.

Maybe let the kids file through for lunch and send them back home? For the time being, I mean.

In 2011 I was attempting to assist a family in getting their finances in order (by "teaching them to fish").

At the beginning of the process when the financial difficulties were being described I was told, "We were going to pay the mortgage but then the cell phones bill came due." My immediate reaction was saying to myself, "Am I so far behind the times that today it's more important to pay your cell phone bill than your mortgage??!! That cell phones are more essential than making sure you keep your house??!!"

Vinny

[dualstow]

@smithers: ok, but how much gym time are you going to miss if you’re horizontal with a temperature and the shivers or, God forbid, in a coma.

(vinny) But who are the experts?
Vinny. Vinny

Vinny

There is no single one, but if you get the health professionals and economists and policy makers together, hopefully they’ll come to a conclusion. It won’t please everyone, but it’s better than letting the masses decide, i.m.o.
It’s very trendy to dismiss the experts, especially with the younger generation but while it’s always important to think critically and to scrutinize, I think it would be dangerous to discount them wholesale.

Actually that guy in Smith’s friend’s photo on the previous page looks like an expert. Guy with the grey moustache. Look at that concentration. I’m sure he’s working on a solution as we speak.

[yankees60]

@smithers: ok, but how much gym time are you going to miss if you’re horizontal with a temperature and the shivers or, God forbid, in a coma.

(vinny) But who are the experts?
Vinny. Vinny

Vinny

There is no single one, but if you get the health professionals and economists and policy makers together, hopefully they’ll come to a conclusion. It won’t please everyone, but it’s better than letting the masses decide, i.m.o.
Actually that guy in Smith’s friend’s photo on the previous page looks like an expert. Guy with the grey moustache. Look at that concentration. I’m sure he’s working on a solution as we speak.

This famous book: The Wisdom of Crowds

https://smile.amazon.com/Wisdom-Crowds- ... l_huc_item

"In this fascinating book, New Yorker business columnist James Surowiecki explores a deceptively simple idea: Large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant—better at solving problems, fostering innovation, coming to wise decisions, even predicting the future."

Vinny

[dualstow]

You’re too fast for me. I edited in a bit more above, not knowing you were already working on your reply.

Wisdom of crowds is great sometimes. Populism is not.