Kshartle wrote:
moda0306 wrote:
The government (or the people in it) doesn't claim it has the only and universa right to violence.... and while defending yourself is legal, so is the government collecting taxes based on law, or arresting/incarcerating someone based on due process, or building a road based on a legal levy that is passed. How is it different? The government does not illegalize certain forms of force by individuals nor does it legalize all forms of force for itself.
There are a ton of laws that prohibit government agents from being violent given certain scenarios, and when they are violent in an inappropriate way, usually they are punished. I'm not saying it's perfect, but neither is our rate of punishing violent aggression in the private sector... it's just not always going to work.
First off....nothing is morally acceptable because it's legal or morally unnaceptable because it's illegal. I have never said anything like it or insinuated it. I think you are deliberatly trying to confuse the issues and bury me in the endless task of making explanations of obvious stuff, all by deliberatly misstating me.
Woah man... I specifically said that I didn't think that this was what you were actually trying to say. You DID say this:
"Agressive force is a better term, since defending yourself is legal."
This seems to imply that you're saying the difference between legitimate and aggressive force is its legal status... I wanted to clarify your position, because I know this isn't a Kshartle-esque assertion.
Sorry if it seemed like I was saying something else.
I have to mention defense of one's self as legal because if i say government is a monopoly on violence or the use of force people (yourself included) will claim it doesn't have that because people can defend themselves and it's even legal. It's annoying that the distinction between the two acts and the impact of those differences are still deliberately ignored as though they don't exist.
If you are going to write a sentence that defending ones self has anything in common with the government moderating the level of force it initiates based on law......and think these have anything to do with one another.......then I think you are not debating in good faith and are just trying to fill posts with as many words as possible. I am sorry if that's harsh but I can't believe you are trying to discuss this stuff in good faith when you write something that it, there is no way you believe it.
I'm not saying that defense of oneself and government reigning back force are the same thing. Really.
But if you're going to say that the government is the only entity that the "vast majority" of people accept "aggressive force" from, then you are pretty correct, for the most part, if you're going to define government as "aggressive force" rather than "legitimate"... and I see what you mean now... however, we have a HUGE number of governments to choose from around this country alone (of course, with one over-arching one above them), but then options all over the world beyond that. So only within a given geographical area do certain governments have anything that resemble a "monopoly."
And, I'd add, that any time the "vast majority" of people support non-governmental behavior that is forceful (slavery, expansion westward, pollution), now you're moving beyond government being the only entity that the vast majority accepts "aggressive force" from. Further, if the vast majority of people expect property that is stolen to be still obtained by the thief, and not reclaimable by the person stolen from, then you have generations of people accepting "aggressive force" against the true owners of property.
Regarding the girl getting raped... I hope it's clear that I don't condone her being raped, but if she knew that she was about to go to a desert island with only two men that both are eager to rape, and nobody else, that by choosing that route she bears some small responsibility to what occurs there. Not that the two men have any fingers to point other than to themselves, but I think we're missing the broader point here that if people aren't willing to avoid OBVIOUS MORTAL dangers, then are they really exercising that mind-muscle well. I mean we are trying to claim that we are conscious, intelligent people, who should understand the natural consequences of our actions, whether we deserve them or not, are we not?
Further, and very importantly, you are making "threats of violence" (which I would agree are a form of violence) out to be the same as murder. Violence isn't a scoreboard where every violent act receives a tally. Violence is a sliding scale. If I push someone in a bar, is that the same as me pulling out gun and killing them?
I'd hope not.
Would we consider a country with 1,000 shootings per 100,000 people every year to be "more violent" than a country with 1,001 purse-snatches per 100,000 people?
I'd hope so.
Also, you've already admitted that the "vast majority of people" see the agents of government as having a LEGITIMATE role, then they aren't really acting under the threat of force... they're acting under free will because they believe that government is a legitimate role. They drive between the lines because they WANT to. They like having city sewer. They often will believe in the Social Security they pay into. They aren't forced at gunpoint... they want these things in place. By your own words, the vast majority of people broadly accept government as a legitimate entity, and even a lot of libertarians, as you say, want some of these things in place.
Are you stating that someone who advocates for Social Security, including paying in their share, is actually having a gun pointed at their head by government when they pay in?
Would you say that a member of a gang is "forced" to do the bidding of the gang leader if he chose to be in the gang in the first place, if he knew what he was getting into?
So if we account for the fact that a "threat of force" that is easily escaped (most people aren't actually worried about being shot by government) isn't NEARLY as bad as murder (do we agree here?), and that the "vast majority" of people willfully engage with government rules peacefully not because they're "forced" to, but they agree with the authority of government, then, really, how much "violence" can we ascribe to government?
Not nearly as much as you're trying to...