Putin Invades Ukraine II

[ppnewbie]

Rulers come

Rulers go

Borders wax

Borders wain


For those who need some historical perspective
https://youtu.be/UY9P0QSxlnI

Thanks for the link! Very interesting.

[ppnewbie]

Its funny, I think we are very screwed. We are being arrogant to...RUSSIA.

1938: We’re being arrogant to Hitler. We should be nice!

What are you willing to lose over this? Would you send your child to fight this fight? Would you go yourself? Many many many people are on the precipice. Famine, poverty, death. They have skin in the game. And if it seems like Europe is united against Russia. I think they have no choice. They are vassals of the US.

In my opinion it’s naive to think the US gives a damn about Ukraine. The US is willing to try to bleed out Russia up to the last Ukrainian (again IMHO). This administration thinks this is good for the US. They want the war to go on. Their is really no NATO, it’s the US.

That’s a little bit of an editorial - but back to the main question - would you go and fight this war or send your own child to fight this war?

[Xan]

Rulers come

Rulers go

Borders wax

Borders wain

Burma-Shave

[murphy_p_t]

Rulers come

Rulers go

Borders wax

Borders wain

Burma-Shave

Ok... Had to look that one up...

It's from before my gen...gen... generation.

[dualstow]

Its funny, I think we are very screwed. We are being arrogant to...RUSSIA.

1938: We’re being arrogant to Hitler. We should be nice!

What are you willing to lose over this? Would you send your child to fight this fight? Would you go yourself? Many many many people are on the precipice. Famine, poverty, death. They have skin in the game. And if it seems like Europe is united against Russia. I think they have no choice. They are vassals of the US.

In my opinion it’s naive to think the US gives a damn about Ukraine. The US is willing to try to bleed out Russia up to the last Ukrainian (again IMHO). This administration thinks this is good for the US. They want the war to go on. Their is really no NATO, it’s the US.

That’s a little bit of an editorial - but back to the main question - would you go and fight this war or send your own child to fight this war?

No. But I would definitely send man-portable weapons and drones to the Ukrainian forces. The alternative is to watch Putin run roughshod over the country and take what he wants. 2014 Crimea. Putin got what he wanted, and this appeasement did not solve the problem.
Now he’s at it again, and because Ukranians didn’t welcome the Russian army with flowers and open arms, they’re getting killed and raped. But the U.S. is being arrogant. Okay.

[dualstow]

How do you feel abut the sanctions, Desert? Too much? (because they hurt the Russian population) Just enough? (because it also hurts Putin’s popularity at home) Not enough? (Because he can still sell various forms of energy, and apparently can still afford to turn off the spigot)

[murphy_p_t]

Oh yes... Depending upon the arsonist to help extinguish the fire.


https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/sta ... 4uRDQ&s=19

[ppnewbie]

We are back to an intellectual chess game confined to a specific board in a complicated but known system. Some questions, how long does it take to learn to operate complicated weapons systems that you’ve never seen before? Is it more difficult to learn how to use them when Russians are firing at you?

I listened to an interesting pod coast with a former marine who was the chief weapons inspector in Iraq. He said sending someone our weapons was a death sentence.

Is it possible that those weapons systems just turn around and get sold to even more bad actors? Is Ukraine known as an upstanding government or one with a high corruption level?

[dualstow]

Oh yes... Depending upon the arsonist to help extinguish the fire.


https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/sta ... 4uRDQ&s=19

I see someone under the name the sirius report on twitter claimed some years ago "the u.s. wrecked Ukraine." Obviously a possibility -- the U.S. has done a lot of damage around the world - but there is no article about it, nor any argument that I can see. Just one anonymous person's opinion.

[ppnewbie]

Oh yes... Depending upon the arsonist to help extinguish the fire.


https://twitter.com/thesiriusreport/sta ... 4uRDQ&s=19

I see someone under the name the sirius report on twitter claimed some years ago "the u.s. wrecked Ukraine." Obviously a possibility -- the U.S. has done a lot of damage around the world - but there is no article about it, nor any argument that I can see. Just one anonymous person's opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAB3QsuShXU

"Color" revolutions. Organize / Foment protests, throw in a few well placed chaotic violent bad actors to create chaos, Provoke a heavy handed response. Causing outrage and more protest. Add a pinch more of fomentation (not sure if thats a word) - Come up with a plan to install your puppet. Happen to be watching Ukrainian dancing with the Stars. That guy looks good.

[dualstow]

I'm listening now, thanks. Doesn't matter if I agree with him or not when I'm finished listening. I appreciate your sending something of substance.

[murphy_p_t]

"No. But I would definitely send man-portable weapons and drones to the Ukrainian forces."

Biden is proposing $33 billion of "aid"
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... on-warfare


Is that of the scale you have in mind?

[dualstow]

... ok, well, Mearsheimer appears to be a professional contrarian. That's fine, but I think I agree with the conventional wisdom, while at the same time allowing (again) that the US and the CIA have done a lot of damage. His strawman that the U.S. is a "benign hegemon" and "never did anything wrong" is not helpful, and doesn't change anything. We're just less bad than the Russians, in my opinion.

More importantly, why not let the Ukrainians speak. If they voted on this, do you think they would choose to run with NATO and the U.S. or Russia? Why *didn't* they welcome the Russians with flowers and open arms? Why indeed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"No. But I would definitely send man-portable weapons and drones to the Ukrainian forces."

Biden is proposing $33 billion of "aid"
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... on-warfare


Is that of the scale you have in mind?

Mr M I don't know enough about the budget, nor how much weapons cost, etc, to take a guess on the appropriate amount.
I did read this morning that like with everything else, there are supply chain and chip shortage problems.

[murphy_p_t]

"But as long as the Ukrainians choose to fight, the path to peace is Ukrainian military success. That improves Ukraine’s negotiating position, and disincentivizes future international aggression—not just by Russia, but China, too—by showing that the costs outweigh the benefits."

So outsource the decision to enter world war 3 into the hands of zelensky.

[murphy_p_t]

Zero Hedge has long appeared to be a Russian propaganda source. At best, they're a conspiratorial clickbait site. But for at least 4-5 years, they've consistently echoed RT and other Russian propaganda sites. And of course they're known for their financial doom porn, and more recently their coronavirus nonsense.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... propaganda

https://newrepublic.com/article/156788/ ... ojan-horse

Are you suggesting Biden is not proposing 33 billion in aid?

[boglerdude]

1650661634196.jpg (103.36 KiB) Viewed 4206 times

[dualstow]

By the way, I think I remember you saying you spent some time in Russia some years back. Do I remember correctly?

Just a few months, in 1994. It was quite an experience!

If you haven’t seen foglifter’s post in this thread, it’s several pages in from the beginning. He has lived it all, and also has Ukraine connections.

[murphy_p_t]

https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1 ... Vae-Q&s=19

Is this a good take on the overall situation for ukraine?

If /when its apparent to all that Russian objectives are being met through this special military operation, will Western forces use nuclear weapons against Russia and/or create a false flag (especially chemical, biological, nuclear... Or intentionally Target a civilian population)?

[murphy_p_t]

I hope the nuclear Holocaust enthusiasts will enjoy this number.

https://youtu.be/IDCLgLHk_wQ

[ppnewbie]

... ok, well, Mearsheimer appears to be a professional contrarian. That's fine, but I think I agree with the conventional wisdom, while at the same time allowing (again) that the US and the CIA have done a lot of damage. His strawman that the U.S. is a "benign hegemon" and "never did anything wrong" is not helpful, and doesn't change anything. We're just less bad than the Russians, in my opinion.

More importantly, why not let the Ukrainians speak. If they voted on this, do you think they would choose to run with NATO and the U.S. or Russia? Why *didn't* they welcome the Russians with flowers and open arms? Why indeed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

One thing about this is that I think the Ukranians did speak when they elected the previous neutralist / friendly to Russian government that was overthrown in blood lead coup (wink wink).

[ppnewbie]

Zero Hedge has long appeared to be a Russian propaganda source. At best, they're a conspiratorial clickbait site. But for at least 4-5 years, they've consistently echoed RT and other Russian propaganda sites. And of course they're known for their financial doom porn, and more recently their coronavirus nonsense.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... propaganda

https://newrepublic.com/article/156788/ ... ojan-horse

Can’t see this. Their financial coverage is way ahead most other sources. And as far as propaganda, I feel like you have to pick your poison or try to inject all the different poisons to neutralize the effects. The New York Times is so bad I can barely read 10 words before I throw it away.

[dualstow]

( ppn, I edited your reply to me, two posts up (12:37am if EST) to fill in the missing end quote tag so that your reply displays as your words and not mine. And then I trimmed off the rest, as that was just my reply to Murphy. Let me know if I did it wrong )

(ppnewbie)
One thing about this is that I think the Ukranians did speak when they elected the previous neutralist / friendly to Russian government that was overthrown in blood lead coup (wink wink).

Every once in a while, a Russian-leaning candidate wins narrowly in a rigged election. Otherwise, Putin merely poisons the opposition. Like you said, one has to pick one’s poison. Looks like Putin prefers polonium and novichok.

The Zero Hedge guy was barred from from being a broker after being charged with insider trading, so he definitely has some experience in finance.

[Xan]

Back to reality:

There are so many stories like this one, describing the brutality of Russia's invasion. Ol' Ronald Reagan was right about a few things when describing this culture.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61249158

Horrifying. One thing stood out:

The new inmates were put in uniforms and had their hair cut and were told they would be "vaccinated", which turned out to be a euphemism for a beating, Nikita said.

So Putin HAS been conducting a vaccination campaign!

[ppnewbie]

Can’t see this. Their financial coverage is way ahead most other sources. And as far as propaganda, I feel like you have to pick your poison or try to inject all the different poisons to neutralize the effects. The New York Times is so bad I can barely read 10 words before I throw it away.

Your view that ZH is superior to NYT is going to lead to a lot of poor takes like this one:

Russia is going to invade Ukraine on Tuesday at 3pm!!!

Meanwhile EU countries have not pulled their embassy workers and the President of Ukraine seems very relaxed, while Putin is laughing at the west.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=12484

Consumption of poison like Zero Hedge is a choice. There are better choices, but that's up to you.

I honestly kind of view them as two versions of the same thing. But ZH has some sophisticated takes on topics, like the economy and finance. They could be wrong or biased but I need to be responsible for managing that OR we can now rely on the ministry of truth that the current administration is setting up.

[ppnewbie]

Back to reality:

There are so many stories like this one, describing the brutality of Russia's invasion. Ol' Ronald Reagan was right about a few things when describing this culture.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61249158

We are going to keep seeing this. I call it war porn. It feels so good to be indignant and cry tears of sympathy.

But it’s much harder to say yeah you have the upper hand, we screwed up when we messed with a country right next to you. Let’s negotiate. Or we can threaten - if you don’t we will keep sending Ukranians in as cannon fodder and write sad stories about it. I know I’m beating a dead horse!