Libertarians and property

[Mark Leavy]

Doodle, you are clearly a man of intellect and provenance.

I think Madagascar is ripe for plundering. The government is corrupt. Nothing but private security protecting private property.

You're my man. I'll back you ten cents on the dollar. Bring home the bacon!

Mark

[Mark Leavy]

I break into a brinks truck and steal money. How is that adjudicated? Does Brinks get to do with me what they please if they catch me?

You’re a funny man, doodle. I suggest you try it.

So they knock on my door and say, we think you may have our money. And I say I don't. What comes next for me? This is getting exciting!

You skipped the part where you take their money. That's the fun part of the story.

[glennds]

Doodle, you are clearly a man of intellect and provenance.

I think Madagascar is ripe for plundering. The government is corrupt. Nothing but private security protecting private property.

You're my man. I'll back you ten cents on the dollar. Bring home the bacon!

Mark

Or at least bring home some vanilla. Vanilla prices have skyrocketed in recent years. Might have been a better physical asset than gold in the PP. Madagascar leads the world in vanilla production.

[Libertarian666]

Can one of the hardcore libertarians explain to me simply how ownership and enforcement of property rights would exist in a system absent a single arbiter who held a monopoly on the use of force?

There is always a single arbiter. Each party consents to the arbiter instead of being forced by the government monopoly. Imagine each county having more than one legal system, you belong to one group, and they provide you with the services. If there is a dispute from another group, they wouldn't use your judge because that's biased, you wouldn't use their judge because that's biased. Therefore both parties would have to pick a third group that has no interest in either party, their only interest is maintaining their integrity with the market by being neutral. If the third party failed to be neutral and just, people would leave that group and join another one.

You'd have market judges and jury's, not government judges and jury's. The free market holds the monopoly of force.

Excellent explanation!

[Libertarian666]

By the way, this is probably the best thread ever, in this section at least.
Thanks!

[doodle]

There is always a single arbiter. Each party consents to the arbiter instead of being forced by the government monopoly.

To play devil's advocate, isn't that effectively what we currently have?

Granted, we are all born in a country (government) that we didn't voluntarily choose. But thereafter, if the country allows us to emigrate to another country, we can eventually do so.

Isn't that sort of like voluntarily choosing an arbiter (government)? There aren't an infinite number of choices of arbiter, but there is a choice, right?

I'm not necessarily taking a hard position here. Just asking questions and engaging in discussion.

Practical objections:

What if they don't allow you to emigrate?
What if there's no other country that will allow you to immigrate?
And even if you can do it, why should you have to take such drastic action? You can switch cellphone providers without having to move to a different "cellphone jurisdiction". Why should this not be true of possibly the most important service you could ever buy?

Fundamental objection:

If you believe in "consent of the governed", then the governed should be free to consent or not to consent. Actual consent is what this method accomplishes, in stark contrast to the fraudulent notion that a person's voting means that he is giving consent to be governed, which was demolished by Lysander Spooner over 100 years ago: https://jim.com/treason.htm.

Can I withdraw my consent at anytime? Or once I initially consent that decision then becomes permanent?

[doodle]

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.

..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.

[Libertarian666]

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.

..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.

If there is public visibility for contractual disputes, as I'm envisioning with a society functioning by reference to the General Agreement to Arbitration, people who violate their contracts will be shunned by honest people, who can identify one another as being signatories.

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.

[SomeDude]

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.

Some like it hotter than others.

Seriously, getting rid of government for arbitration will make it much cheaper and reduce liability for business by eliminating frivolous lawsuits and worthless regs that are not market driven.

[doodle]

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.

Some like it hotter than others.

Seriously, getting rid of government for arbitration will make it much cheaper and reduce liability for business by eliminating frivolous lawsuits and worthless regs that are not market driven.

Right, but even more important, it demonstrates that one major justification for government, namely that it is necessary for dispute resolution, is fraudulent.

Ok, but we are skirting around the issue here of enforcement. it's wonderful to imagine this beautiful rational world where everything runs like a Swiss clock...but the world is a messy place and force sometimes is the only way to compel action. How are you going to enforce laws?

Let's say I break a traffic law. You want to charge me with recklessly running a red light and killing your child. I say the child ran out into street and I didn't run the light. I don't agree to submit to arbitration because I'm innocent. Whats the repercussion? A bad Yelp review?

[doodle]

Let's say I break a traffic law. You want to charge me with recklessly running a red light and killing your child. I say the child ran out into street and I didn't run the light. I don't agree to submit to arbitration because I'm innocent. Whats the repercussion? A bad Yelp review?

You downplay it as. ‘Bad Yelp review” but historically this meant you’d die alone, hungry as the tribe abandoned you.

How will a person who murdered a child and refused to take any kind of responsibility play out in society?

Will you hire this person to do work for you? You just fired the president for having an abrasive personality, in spite of doing a pretty good job. Would you continue using an accountant or dentist who murdered a child and then denied assuming any kind of responsibility in the form of an impartial inquiry?

Would you date a person like that?

If you owned a grocery store, would you sell them food?

Perhaps if you were the father of the dead kid, would you perhaps round up a bunch of your friends/family and drag this person out of bed in the middle of the night and hang them from a tree in the form of vigilante mob justice?

In your example, the person is guilty, that’s why they refuse any kind of inquiry/arbitration, so you can’t tell me you feel bad about mob justice against a guilty child murderer?

And if you say mob justice is horrible, can you tell me that in the current system of rules of laws with a single arbiter of force in the form of government, that when government fails to provide justice, that mob justice doesn’t sometimes happen?

Perhaps the fear of mob justice in a libertarian society would encourage people to submit to the third party arbitration. And if you don’t want to live in a city where mob justice may exist, then you can always leave for whatever socialist utopia’s exist elsewhere. The whole point of the libertarian society is that you agree to the basic concepts laid out and if you don’t like them, you can leave and we won’t stop you.

Mob justice? That's your answer on how to create a more just and enlightened society? Sounds lovely. I think we have reached the point of absurdity.

Your libertarian land works nice when everyone plays by the rules...but that isn't the world we live in. Sooner or later you are going to have physically enforce things...I'll take a constitutionally bound publically accountable government where I at least have some rights before I go with mob justice.

[yankees60]

Mob justice? That's your answer on how to create a more just and enlightened society? Sounds lovely. I think we have reached the point of absurdity.

Your libertarian land works nice when everyone plays by the rules...but that isn't the world we live in. Sooner or later you are going to have physically enforce things...I'll take a constitutionally bound publically accountable government where I at least have some rights before I go with mob justice.

316350A3-32AF-47FA-8865-00DB453A9DDC.png



Trivia time!

In the photo above, guess which city in a constitutionally bound publicly accountable government resorted to mob justice by looting and arson this year?

Should be easy, because mob justice is rare in a “just and enlightened society”

There are 365 days in a year. How many communities are there in our country? Let's say 50,000 communities.

Let's do big-time rounding...and say that we, therefore, have about 20,000,000 community-days per year.

For all those community-days in a year how many of them could you produce such a picture as occurring one of those days. This year has certainly been an outlier for them but how many could you come up with? Could you ever come up with a 1,000 such community-days this year? Are there some years with absolutely none? If even a 1,000 that would be about .05% of ALL the community-days in a year?

You are entertaining but the gross exaggerations are not persuasive.

Vinny

[doodle]

Let's say I break a traffic law. You want to charge me with recklessly running a red light and killing your child. I say the child ran out into street and I didn't run the light. I don't agree to submit to arbitration because I'm innocent. Whats the repercussion? A bad Yelp review?

You downplay it as. ‘Bad Yelp review” but historically this meant you’d die alone, hungry as the tribe abandoned you.

How will a person who murdered a child and refused to take any kind of responsibility play out in society?

Will you hire this person to do work for you? You just fired the president for having an abrasive personality, in spite of doing a pretty good job. Would you continue using an accountant or dentist who murdered a child and then denied assuming any kind of responsibility in the form of an impartial inquiry?

Would you date a person like that?

If you owned a grocery store, would you sell them food?

How would anyone know? Would there be a centralized database where I can dig into everyone's reviews? Does the vigilante mob hold them down and tattoo baby killer on their forehead? Sounds kind of oppressive to me....especially since none of these reviews will be vetted since there is no need for adjudication to declare guilt apparently when we have a mob that is able to undertake all those decisions.

I think it would be better for libertarians to concentrate on realistic measures to increase liberty in our society rather than pie in the sky ideas about eliminating governments and turning everything over to the free market. Maybe one day when our lizard brains have withered and we all possess the rationality of spock we can move in that direction. Until then, I think it's best to focus efforts on making our governments as effective and efficient as possible.

[moda0306]

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.

..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.

If there is public visibility for contractual disputes, as I'm envisioning with a society functioning by reference to the General Agreement to Arbitration, people who violate their contracts will be shunned by honest people, who can identify one another as being signatories.

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.

Funny, cuz if that's true, than the vast majority of Americans would identify as anarcho-capitalist, or have strong leanings towards that philosophy.

But they don't...

[glennds]

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.

..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.

If there is public visibility for contractual disputes, as I'm envisioning with a society functioning by reference to the General Agreement to Arbitration, people who violate their contracts will be shunned by honest people, who can identify one another as being signatories.

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.

Funny, cuz if that's true, than the vast majority of Americans would identify as anarcho-capitalist, or have strong leanings towards that philosophy.

But they don't...

Where on the political spectrum do you feel the vast majority of Americans identify?

[yankees60]

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.

..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.

If there is public visibility for contractual disputes, as I'm envisioning with a society functioning by reference to the General Agreement to Arbitration, people who violate their contracts will be shunned by honest people, who can identify one another as being signatories.

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.

Funny, cuz if that's true, than the vast majority of Americans would identify as anarcho-capitalist, or have strong leanings towards that philosophy.

But they don't...

Where on the political spectrum do you feel the vast majority of Americans identify?

On a quick Bing search this is what I found from two years ago...something more recent can be found?

U.S. Still Leans Conservative, but Liberals Keep Recent Gains

https://news.gallup.com/poll/245813/lea ... gains.aspx

Vinny

[doodle]

Just curious....how would a libertarian interpret this in light of everything we've discussed?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FuckYouKaren/ ... _fine_to/

This apparently Oklahoma law regarding this situation for context...

Screenshot_20201208-100403.png (254.58 KiB) Viewed 5988 times

[doodle]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

[Mark Leavy]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

We'll soon find out how that system works. It's the new rule in Los Angeles as of today.

The misdemeanor charges specified below shall be declined or dismissed before arraignment and
without conditions unless “exceptions” or “factors for consideration” exist.

The list includes:
Trespass, Disturbing the Peace, No Driver's License, Criminal Threats, Drug Possession, Public Intoxication, Prostitution, Resisting Arrest

[Mountaineer]

Libtards now has an expanded definition. It just keeps getting worse and worse

[Libertarian666]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

We'll soon find out how that system works. It's the new rule in Los Angeles as of today.

The misdemeanor charges specified below shall be declined or dismissed before arraignment and
without conditions unless “exceptions” or “factors for consideration” exist.

The list includes:
Trespass, Disturbing the Peace, No Driver's License, Criminal Threats, Drug Possession, Public Intoxication, Prostitution, Resisting Arrest

I can't imagine how such a brilliant plan could go wrong!

[doodle]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

We'll soon find out how that system works. It's the new rule in Los Angeles as of today.

The misdemeanor charges specified below shall be declined or dismissed before arraignment and
without conditions unless “exceptions” or “factors for consideration” exist.

The list includes:
Trespass, Disturbing the Peace, No Driver's License, Criminal Threats, Drug Possession, Public Intoxication, Prostitution, Resisting Arrest

I can't imagine how such a brilliant plan could go wrong!

Tech, you talking out of both sides of mouth...
Seems like most of those would be unenforceable or not even an issue under libertarianism so should be a win for your team's philosophy!...no licenses, prostitution would be legal as well as drugs...public intoxication no problem as long as you aren't hurting anyone...I don't see anything from that list that would be a crime in a world without government.

[Libertarian666]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

We'll soon find out how that system works. It's the new rule in Los Angeles as of today.

The misdemeanor charges specified below shall be declined or dismissed before arraignment and
without conditions unless “exceptions” or “factors for consideration” exist.

The list includes:
Trespass, Disturbing the Peace, No Driver's License, Criminal Threats, Drug Possession, Public Intoxication, Prostitution, Resisting Arrest

I can't imagine how such a brilliant plan could go wrong!

Tech, you talking out of both sides of mouth...
Seems like most of those would be unenforceable or not even an issue under libertarianism so should be a win for your team's philosophy!...no licenses, prostitution would be legal as well as drugs...public intoxication no problem as long as you aren't hurting anyone...I don't see anything from that list that would be a crime in a world without government.

I'm in favor of getting rid of victimless crime laws, including drug possession, public intoxication, and prostitution. Of course "resisting arrest" wouldn't exist without government either.
Trespass, disturbing the peace, and criminal threats would still be an issue without government.
There wouldn't be any government licenses, but driving on a road where you haven't paid the toll would still be subject to penalties.

As soon as you find the anarchist utopia I can move to, please let me know. It seems to be missing from my maps, so I have to deal with the fact that I'm going to live under a government. The question is how bad that government will be.

[yankees60]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

We'll soon find out how that system works. It's the new rule in Los Angeles as of today.

The misdemeanor charges specified below shall be declined or dismissed before arraignment and
without conditions unless “exceptions” or “factors for consideration” exist.

The list includes:
Trespass, Disturbing the Peace, No Driver's License, Criminal Threats, Drug Possession, Public Intoxication, Prostitution, Resisting Arrest

I can't imagine how such a brilliant plan could go wrong!

Tech, you talking out of both sides of mouth...
Seems like most of those would be unenforceable or not even an issue under libertarianism so should be a win for your team's philosophy!...no licenses, prostitution would be legal as well as drugs...public intoxication no problem as long as you aren't hurting anyone...I don't see anything from that list that would be a crime in a world without government.

I'm in favor of getting rid of victimless crime laws, including drug possession, public intoxication, and prostitution. Of course "resisting arrest" wouldn't exist without government either.
Trespass, disturbing the peace, and criminal threats would still be an issue without government.
There wouldn't be any government licenses, but driving on a road where you haven't paid the toll would still be subject to penalties.

As soon as you find the anarchist utopia I can move to, please let me know. It seems to be missing from my maps, so I have to deal with the fact that I'm going to live under a government. The question is how bad that government will be.

Wait!!!

My house is on a main road in this rural area. 40 MPH speed limit. And, it is a busy street. I'm annoyed each time I have to stand on either side of the road waiting for cars to go by when dealing with my newspaper / mail boxes that are across the street from my driveway.

What is the mechanism for paying the toll to drive on my street? Who pays for my street to be snow plowed? To be repaved?

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

I'm just curious what the libertarians do when someone flaunts the law. Is the punishment that you just tell the offender they are a mean nasty person and no one will want to be their friend?

We'll soon find out how that system works. It's the new rule in Los Angeles as of today.

The misdemeanor charges specified below shall be declined or dismissed before arraignment and
without conditions unless “exceptions” or “factors for consideration” exist.

The list includes:
Trespass, Disturbing the Peace, No Driver's License, Criminal Threats, Drug Possession, Public Intoxication, Prostitution, Resisting Arrest

I can't imagine how such a brilliant plan could go wrong!

Tech, you talking out of both sides of mouth...
Seems like most of those would be unenforceable or not even an issue under libertarianism so should be a win for your team's philosophy!...no licenses, prostitution would be legal as well as drugs...public intoxication no problem as long as you aren't hurting anyone...I don't see anything from that list that would be a crime in a world without government.

I'm in favor of getting rid of victimless crime laws, including drug possession, public intoxication, and prostitution. Of course "resisting arrest" wouldn't exist without government either.
Trespass, disturbing the peace, and criminal threats would still be an issue without government.
There wouldn't be any government licenses, but driving on a road where you haven't paid the toll would still be subject to penalties.

As soon as you find the anarchist utopia I can move to, please let me know. It seems to be missing from my maps, so I have to deal with the fact that I'm going to live under a government. The question is how bad that government will be.

Wait!!!

My house is on a main road in this rural area. 40 MPH speed limit. And, it is a busy street. I'm annoyed each time I have to stand on either side of the road waiting for cars to go by when dealing with my newspaper / mail boxes that are across the street from my driveway.

What is the mechanism for paying the toll to drive on my street? Who pays for my street to be snow plowed? To be repaved?

Vinny

Are you questioning the innovation and creativity of our citizenry? The ones who put a man on the moon and rose from the ashes several times in our history? Just because you or I don't see a solution does not mean that an Elon Musk doesn't. Your road will be paved and plowed; I'll guarantee it.