Gyroscopic Investing

Mountaineer, don't you ever get tired of reading Christian-biased propaganda even under thin guise of impartiality? I sometimes wonder if you're consciously aware of your extreme confirmation bias. Having an active open mind is in by seeking out sources you disagree with, not engaging in a circle jerk.

interactive processing wrote:
+1

Galatians 6:6-8 (ESV)

6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Peace guys, you will obtain your reward soon enough. You do know you can turn the channel and not watch if you do not like the show. You don't need to try to ban all TVs like the libs would want to do.

... Mountaineer (forever faithful to the one who counts)

interactive processing wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:Galatians 6:6-8 (ESV)

6 Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Peace guys, you will obtain your reward soon enough. You do know you can turn the channel and not watch if you do not like the show. You don't need to try to ban all TVs like the libs would want to do.

... Mountaineer (forever faithful to the one who counts)

i seriously doubt either mountaineer or i are mocking god, i don't think we are mocking you either (i know am not) nor are we interested in banning anything, we just cant quite grasp how narrow, closed, and repetitive your world-view is on the subject and understanding of religion... it just boggles the mind a bit how one dimensional it comes off as seeming, especially to those of us who don't share the version of religion that seems like a form self hypnosis for happiness through an imaginary friend... (listen to the word... hear the word...have faith... repeat until all other thoughts are vanquished....) then repeat constantly to self and others never letting other thoughts in.. perpetually hoping that somebody will join the club and be saved with you, justifying the belief system with the power of group think ...

keep in mind that i see your posts this way, not as an unbeliever or an atheist but as fan of reason and a realist who thinks there is something worthwhile underlying religions and what they attempt to teach...

interactive processing,

Thank you (seriously) for your thoughts. No big deal, but I think you meant to say MG in the first line and not mountaineer. It is truly interesting to me what you say because I almost quoted your last picture (the green prison and closed mind) in a response. That is EXACTLY how I perceive non-believers, especially you and MG in your last posts. It truly is an interesting phenomena that when one encounters a different worldview than the one they hold, the first thing that likely comes to mind is "how could that intelligent person be so incredibly blind to truth?" Fascinating indeed!

Anyway, best wishes and thanks again for the discussion. Cool dude! There is always hope! I wish the best eternal outcome for all my non-believing friends, internet and reality all. I do know, however, that is God's call and not mine.

... Mountaineer

Edit: Perhaps it would help to think of the Christian Bible not as a guide book, or a how to book, but as a book to make Jesus known to you. There are a plethora of self-help books out there with the aim of making you healthier, wealthier, wiser, more competitive, better looking, dressed to succeed, and fitter ... even some that will guide you to the perfect supplement regime. They are written to appeal to your reason (and to make money for the author ). The Bible is not one of those. It has a completely different primary purpose. It is full of mysteries that cannot be grasped by reason, even though much of it is reasonable and is useful for knowing how to live a Godly life. I would be the first to admit that 900 year old men, a virgin birth, a resurrection, healing a blind man with mud, or casting out demons does not fit with our frame of scientific reference, reason, or mindset. It is not intended to. Perhaps that is the issue ... the Christian Bible is unique, in its accounts, in its purpose, in its authorship. Do not expect it to make sense if you have not been given the gift of the Holy Spirit ... it will seem like a fairy tale. One receives the gift of the Holy Spirit by baptism and hearing the Word. If you do not allow yourself to hear the Word by going to where it is proclaimed .... it is just more fairy tale. To those who do hear and believe the Word, it is comforting beyond measure to know everything you ever did that was bad (known and unknown to you) is forgiven by the Creator of everything that exists because of what Christ did on the cross ... for you.

... Mountaineer

interactive processing wrote: oops yes i meant MG

again i am neither an atheist or an unbeliever. i just have very serious doubts about the existence of a child like conception of a big sky daddy god, one that wants me to abandon reason, see things that cant be perceived using faith, deny what i can actually see and perceive, then drowned out the cognitive dissidence this would all cause with the endless repetition of the words of belief/faith... i am not saying religion (or Christianity) is wrong i am in firmly in the there is more to it than this camp...

I am curious to know how it is that Christians almost universally ignore New Testament verses like the ones below and still hold forth the doctrine that the Bible is the "inerrant, Infallible, and authoritative Word of God". I know that the standard line of Christian apologists is that it was dealing with a situation unique to the Church in Paul's time and doesn't apply, at least literally, today. So does this mean that Christians are allowed to pick and choose which verses apply today and which don't, in other words "situational ethics"?

Or is it that "inerrant, infallible, and authoritative Word of God" (aka, "The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it") is just another religious shibboleth that has no real meaning?

(I'll offer a possible solution to the problem free of charge, although it creates another conundrum for the fundamentalist believer. Many Bible scholars do not believe that the verses below, along with others related to the role of women in Church (including whole books) were not actually written by Paul but are later insertions or outright forgeries.)

I can't speak for the Christians you know, but we have discussed it in Bible study and our Pastor has preached on it. Certainly not ignored by my Christian friends.

Blessings curlew.

...Mountaineer

Mountaineer,

Sorry if this seems like it's coming out of left field, and perhaps you've addressed it somewhere in this thread, but can you conceive of any event occurring in your life or another's that would change your faith?

iwealth wrote:Mountaineer,

Sorry if this seems like it's coming out of left field, and perhaps you've addressed it somewhere in this thread, but can you conceive of any event occurring in your life or another's that would change your faith?

iwealth,

No, I cannot conceive of anything that would change my faith although I know it could happen if I were to stop going to where God has promised to be for me - in his Word and Sacrament. He is everywhere, even outside of time, but only in those places has he promised to be for me. When I read the Bible, I see account after account that describes promises that God (Yahweh) made to his people. None of those promises have yet been proven untrue and most of them have already come to pass. His people did not do as Yahweh desired, over and over and over again, but Yahweh remained faithful to them. Over and over and over again, his people proved how desparately they needed a savior, they were completely unable to save themselves. Ultimately, Yahweh revealed his means to redeem them from their sin by sending himself (in the person of Jesus) to atone for all their unrighteousness. Those who believe his promises will join him in the new creation. God reveals himself in nature to all, whether they are Christian or not; it is built into mankind to have some understanding of that but Satan tries mightly to make man ignore what is directly in front of our noses. When I look around me, I see all the gifts God has chosen to give us: people, animals, grass, trees, mountains, seas, rivers and even the light that came from distant stars. Man cannot create something from nothing. Man cannot create life. Man, left alone, does unspeakable evil and by nature rebels against the Creator. I know I'm going to die a physical death as a result of sin. I read accounts of Jesus' resurrection from the dead that have overwhelming evidence they are true - not proof, but evidence. He has promised to raise all of us from the dead. He has promised that those who believe his promises will live forever in the new creation with him with no sorrows, no pain, no sin. These are just some of the reasons I believe in the promises of God (aside from his gift of faith to me) - so far his track record is 100% on his promises coming true. Why would I ever doubt the as yet unfullfilled promises will come true? I know beyond a shadow of doubt my faith is grounded in and given to me by the one absolute truth.

If I may, why do you ask?

... Mountaineer

Forgive my random question, but you are an anomaly to me. In my life, I've had very little exposure to people with true unwavering devotion to faith. If you present enough scenarios, it's usually simple to find the one that breaks the camel's back. You are lucky that what you believe in so unconditionally can under no circumstances ever disappoint you. And it can't expire or pass on before your earthly life ends. This appeals to me.

You've clearly spent a significant amount of time studying your faith to the point where you sound like an academic much of the time in these discussions. I'd wager that your IQ is above average. Do you think it would be possible to experience your level of devotion and faith if you were of a "simpler" mind?

iwealth wrote:Do you think it would be possible to experience your level of devotion and faith if you were of a "simpler" mind?

Going to be a cynical here to the comment above -- I would think some of the most highly devout people are the ones blowing themselves up in the name of their God/religion. And I would think many are simple minded. Their understanding is probably corrupted (I don't know what the Quran says), but they have ultimate devotion, however totally wrong.

Part of me envies your strong belief, Mountaineer. The engineer part though believes death is death and that is all. I will be torn eternally, or at least until I die, when I may just have to go oops, I was wrong. If I wasn't, I guess I just won't know anyway!

If I am wrong, I may not get the believed in me box checked, but I will get the lived a good, humble life and was good to other people and his family boxes checked so maybe I have a chance.

iwealth wrote:Forgive my random question, but you are an anomaly to me. In my life, I've had very little exposure to people with true unwavering devotion to faith. If you present enough scenarios, it's usually simple to find the one that breaks the camel's back. You are lucky that what you believe in so unconditionally can under no circumstances ever disappoint you. And it can't expire or pass on before your earthly life ends. This appeals to me.

You've clearly spent a significant amount of time studying your faith to the point where you sound like an academic much of the time in these discussions. I'd wager that your IQ is above average. Do you think it would be possible to experience your level of devotion and faith if you were of a "simpler" mind?

iwealth,

Your questions are not random, at least to me. Ask as many as you wish. To answer your question, God's Word places no limits on who may experience faith. John the Baptizer kicked in Elizabeth's womb when Mary, carrying Christ in her womb, came into his presence. Young, old, smart or not, black or white, rich or poor, healthy or sick, every nation ... Jesus died for all. In the passage below, the word Greek is synonymous with nations, the goyim, i.e. the non-Jews.

Romans 1:15-17 (ESV)

15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith,[a] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Footnotes:
Romans 1:17 Or beginning and ending in faith
Romans 1:17 Or The one who by faith is righteous shall live

... Mountaineer

Cortopassi wrote:

iwealth wrote:Do you think it would be possible to experience your level of devotion and faith if you were of a "simpler" mind?

Going to be a cynical here to the comment above -- I would think some of the most highly devout people are the ones blowing themselves up in the name of their God/religion. And I would think many are simple minded. Their understanding is probably corrupted (I don't know what the Quran says), but they have ultimate devotion, however totally wrong.

Part of me envies your strong belief, Mountaineer. The engineer part though believes death is death and that is all. I will be torn eternally, or at least until I die, when I may just have to go oops, I was wrong. If I wasn't, I guess I just won't know anyway!

If I am wrong, I may not get the believed in me box checked, but I will get the lived a good, humble life and was good to other people and his family boxes checked so maybe I have a chance.

Cortopassi,

I'll offer a couple of comments, even though you did not ask a direct question. First, Christianity is different from all other religions. Personally, I think those belief systems or religions that require doing something to please or appease their god can much more easily result in people doing weird or even evil deeds. Christianity is all about what God has done, is doing, and will do for each of us. I have zero admiration for homicide bombers (or as the PC press calls them, suicide bombers) and feel sorry for those who do evil in the name of God, or god, or Satan, mother earth, or what ever term one wishes to use for an external higher power, or an internal mind that is bent severely due to sin. Secondly, I too am an engineer. For me, the case for Christianity is far more logical than any other worldview or belief system that requires far more faith than a belief in the promises of God. We have beat this topic around a bit already many pages back, but you may wish to ponder WHY death exists - not the fact that cells die, wear out, or whatever, but WHY. And, kudos for living a good, humble, and kind life. But it will be viewed by God as filthy rags. Sorry to end on a downer, but remember you are forgiven for the sake of what Christ did on the cross; just believe it.

... Mountaineer

interactive processing wrote:

iwealth wrote:Forgive my random question, but you are an anomaly to me. In my life, I've have very little exposure to people with true unwavering devotion to faith. If you present enough scenarios, it's usually simple to find the one that breaks the camel's back. You are lucky in that what you believe in so unconditionally can under no circumstances ever disappoint you. And it can't expire or pass on before your earthly life ends. This appeals to me.

You've clearly spent a significant amount of time studying your faith to the point where you sound like an academic much of the time in these discussions. I'd wager that your IQ is above average. Do you think it would be possible to experience your level of devotion and faith if you were of a "simpler" mind?

interesting observation....
i find the faith-high intelligence combination to be an unusual anomaly to me as well, which makes mountaineers contribution to this thread extra confounding yet interesting. i would put most of the strong "faith religion" followers i have met or been exposed to in the average and low IQ category, faith based religion has a training wheels on a bike sort of feel to it, it is simplistic and provides a way to balance for people who might not be able to otherwise*. i have also found that the kind of inquisitive, introspective, reason and logic, mind that comes with being smart usually take off their training wheels and dig for a deeper understanding of their spirituality or connection to God, they can seek out harmony and overcome their lower-selfs or "learn to balance without faith" they also tend to be intolerant of the conflicting beliefs that having simple faith requires ...

edit to add
* and as pointed out by Cortopassi they also tend to be the ones who blow themselves up in in the name of their God/religion or follow badly corrupted versions of faith..

The section I emphasized is interesting. In the congregation I'm a part of, the Pastor before the current one told the current Pastor when he was briefing him "When you look out into the congregation from the pulpit, about every other person has a PhD". There are many engineers, physicians, dentists, accountants, economists, lawyers, nurses, housewives, and teachers. There are also people with downs syndrome and other relatively severe disabilities. They are old, young and everything in between; they are white, black, brown and yellow. They are mostly American born but a few are from other countries. They all seem to have a strong belief in the promises of God and in confessional, traditional, orthodox Lutheranism. I wish you could all join me there to receive the gifts of God.

... Mountaineer

Edit: some spellin'

Mountaineer wrote:but you may wish to ponder WHY death exists - not the fact that cells die, wear out, or whatever, but WHY.
... Mountaineer

I am reading Bill Bryson A Short History of Nearly Everything. The first few paragraphs are below. Definitely got me thinking about all this...

Or we could all just be a computer simulation like Elon Musk thinks.

-----

To begin with, for you to be here now trillions of drifting atoms had somehow to assemble
in an intricate and intriguingly obliging manner to create you. It's an arrangement so
specialized and particular that it has never been tried before and will only exist this once. For
the next many years (we hope) these tiny particles will uncomplainingly engage in all the
billions of deft, cooperative efforts necessary to keep you intact and let you experience the
supremely agreeable but generally underappreciated state known as existence.

Why atoms take this trouble is a bit of a puzzle. Being you is not a gratifying experience at
the atomic level. For all their devoted attention, your atoms don't actually care about you indeed,
don't even know that you are there. They don't even know that they are there. They are
mindless particles, after all, and not even themselves alive. (It is a slightly arresting notion
that if you were to pick yourself apart with tweezers, one atom at a time, you would produce a
mound of fine atomic dust, none of which had ever been alive but all of which had once been
you.) Yet somehow for the period of your existence they will answer to a single overarching
impulse: to keep you you.

The bad news is that atoms are fickle and their time of devotion is fleeting-fleeting indeed.
Even a long human life adds up to only about 650,000 hours. And when that modest
milestone flashes past, or at some other point thereabouts, for reasons unknown your atoms
will shut you down, silently disassemble, and go off to be other things. And that's it for you.

Still, you may rejoice that it happens at all. Generally speaking in the universe it doesn't, so
far as we can tell. This is decidedly odd because the atoms that so liberally and congenially
flock together to form living things on Earth are exactly the same atoms that decline to do it
elsewhere. Whatever else it may be, at the level of chemistry life is curiously mundane:
carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen, a little calcium, a dash of sulfur, a light dusting of
other very ordinary elements-nothing you wouldn't find in any ordinary drugstore-and that's
all you need. The only thing special about the atoms that make you is that they make you.
That is of course the miracle of life.

interactive processing wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: The section I emphasized is interesting. In the congregation I'm a part of, the Pastor before the current one told the current Pastor when he was briefing him "When you look out into the congregation from the pulpit, about every other person has a PhD". There are many engineers, physicians, dentists, accountants, economists, lawyers, nurses, housewives, and teachers. There are also people with downs syndrome and other relatively severe disabilities. They are old, young and everything in between; they are white, black, brown and yellow. They are mostly American born but a few are from other countries. They all seem to have a strong belief in the promises of God and in confessional, traditional, orthodox Lutheranism. I wish you could all join me there to receive the gifts of God.

... Mountaineer

Edit: some spellin'

intelligence of the sort i was referring to and a PhD (or high results on standard IQ testing for that matter) don't necessarily correlate, plenty if phd's may show very high aptitude in their profession and still lack the kind of inquisitive, introspective, reason and logic, question everything, mind i am defining as smart (dentists who loose their money when they invest being a truism is an example), For the record i don't think faith based religion is an entirely bad thing, it definitely has its negatives, opiate of the masses, people blowing themselves up in in the name of their God/religion starting wars or following badly corrupted versions of faith, but on the whole there is no harm in it for those who lack the curiosity or testicular fortitude to look deeper, i just have a hard time grasping why anyone with the character traits and type of intelligence i am referring to would stick with faith when the cognitive dissonance and the possibility of there being something deeper is so obvious.
i do recognize my own bias on this.. i am seeing the world through a mind that has internalized the idea that certainty kills intelligence (see my sig) and i keep interacting with people here on this forum where everyone seems to have a unnaturally high level of the above traits... i may very well be loosing track of the fact that we are the oddballs and the statistical rarity in the way we tend to approach thinking about things...

I'm confused as to what more depth you're looking for.

interactive processing wrote:i do recognize my own bias on this.. i am seeing the world through a mind that has internalized the idea that certainty kills intelligence (see my sig) and i keep interacting with people here on this forum where everyone seems to have a unnaturally high level of the above traits... i may very well be loosing track of the fact that we are the oddballs and the statistical rarity in the way we tend to approach thinking about things...

I don't think you do recognize that bias. (Not trying to be snarky.) Your signature means that you are unable to consider that you might be wrong. "As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence." Since you believe that THAT is true, you're unable to consider that you might be wrong. By your own (via the sig) admission.

interactive processing wrote: i didn't say i was certain about the statement in my Sig, only that i had internalized it, and BTW i love the twist in logic/paradox that being certain about that statement about certainty would cause

and Xan.... thanks for kinda proving my point about the unusual approach to thinking about things that is present on this forum... if i had made a claim that i was certain about the downside of being certain (being the death of intelligence) out in the real world, pretty much nobody would spot or comment on the paradox that it creates...

as for more depth.. i suspect and would set out to explore (or encourage others to) the possibility that there is an experience available to all humans that is the underlying foundation of all religion, described in different languages for different cultures by different people across time, descriptions that were not originally intended to become a religion or dogma that one must have faith in and follow blindly, or to be set in conflict with other faiths and dogmas, but as a sign post pointing in the direction of that experience, one set out so that others might seek it out..

interactive processing,
FWIW (not much at all) I get what you are saying, but I doubt it would be productive to reveal IQs. How about you? We would not want to embarrass others!

... Mountaineerl

TennPaGa wrote:So I would also disagree with interactive processing characterization that the faith + high intelligence combination is unusual.

Yes, its not unusual in Appalachia and conservative red America. It's more of a social signaling thing than anything else. Liberals on the coasts, etc. use other signals.

If I ever went to a church to be part of a community, the only one I could probably stand and not have my toes curled too much is Universal Unitarianism.

I do wish there was a sensible middle ground. It gets tiring being in-between the reds and the blues all the time. From my moderate perspective, they're all brainwashed idiots.

Xan wrote:I'm confused as to what more depth you're looking for.

I suspect he's referring to the metaphysical reality beyond simplistic, anthropocentric religions. They're not mutually exclusive. Religion -- by definition -- in all cases that I've seen always distorts and oversimplifies everything. One does not need to first worship facts for them to objectively exist!

BTW, having an active open mind means NEVER being certain about ANYTHING. It is not an emotionally comfortable position to be in, hence you will find very few walking that talk.

MachineGhost wrote:

TennPaGa wrote:So I would also disagree with interactive processing characterization that the faith + high intelligence combination is unusual.

Yes, its not unusual in Appalachia and conservative red America. It's more of a social signaling thing than anything else. Liberals on the coasts, etc. use other signals.

If I ever went to a church to be part of a community, the only one I could probably stand and not have my toes curled too much is Universal Unitarianism.

I do wish there was a sensible middle ground. It gets tiring being in-between the reds and the blues all the time. From my moderate perspective, they're all brainwashed idiots.

Don't want to disappoint, but I am not in Appalachia. I am in mid-Atlantic salt water liberal land.

...Mountaineer

MachineGhost wrote:BTW, having an active open mind means NEVER being certain about ANYTHING. It is not an emotionally comfortable position to be in, hence you will find very few walking that talk.

That doesn't sound very open at all. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility of objective truth. What good is an open mind if, when you stumble upon the truth, you keep on seeking?

Xan wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:BTW, having an active open mind means NEVER being certain about ANYTHING. It is not an emotionally comfortable position to be in, hence you will find very few walking that talk.

That doesn't sound very open at all. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility of objective truth. What good is an open mind if, when you stumble upon the truth, you keep on seeking?

Very well said, Xan.

This assertion that objective truth does not exist is illogical, because the statement itself is asserting an objective truth.

interactive processing wrote: if you belove that "xxx...is" is an objective truth you have closed your mind to the possibility of new information or other points of reference..
we live in a universe that has both relativity and one where the observer is a part of the experiment... or to put it another way objective truth seems to be only truly objective if you can add "it seems to me, at this point in time, based on the potentially limited information, and the specific tools i have to view it with" that "xxx...is" then it is a functionally objective truth, if you don't add the above caveat, then when any one of those perimeters changes your truth may no longer reflect an accurate understanding... there (appears to me at this point in time ) to be no absolute objective truth, the closest we can come to it is a functional truth with an acknowledgment of the possibility of new information and the point/points of reference....
most of the worlds problems come from conflicts between those who are certain that "this" thing IS the objective truth with those who are just as convinced that "that" thing IS the objective truth.. (the most destructive group and one of the most certain of there "truth" out there right now happens to be called ISIS, coincidence i am sure, but some times the universe is funny that way)

there is an awareness exercise using Eprime where you try to eliminate the word is from your vocabulary by snapping a rubber band on your wrist as a reminder, it is "will likely turn out to be" far more difficult than you might expect.. the tortured English grammar and use of strike out over the word is in my above explanation of functional truth is a good example of the challenge, it also solves the paradox Tortoise mentions of "there is no objective truth" being "an objective truth".. the best we can say is that it seems to be that.... well..you get the idea

Tortoise wrote:

Xan wrote:

MachineGhost wrote:BTW, having an active open mind means NEVER being certain about ANYTHING. It is not an emotionally comfortable position to be in, hence you will find very few walking that talk.

That doesn't sound very open at all. You've completely closed your mind to the possibility of objective truth. What good is an open mind if, when you stumble upon the truth, you keep on seeking?

Very well said, Xan.

This assertion that objective truth does not exist is illogical, because the statement itself is asserting an objective truth.

Did somebody assert that there is not such thing as objective truth?

Of course there is. 1 + 1 = 2 is always true and the proof is in the pudding.

Perhaps you mean "objective morality" or "absolute truth", in which case I would assert, not that they don't exist, but that they are loaded religious terms devoid of any real meaning in our present known universe.

Mountaineer wrote:I can't speak for the Christians you know, but we have discussed it in Bible study and our Pastor has preached on it. Certainly not ignored by my Christian friends.

Blessings curlew.

...Mountaineer

So what do your pastor and friends have to say about it? Should women keep silent in the churches or not, and if not, why not? How do you go about figuring out which Bible verses you can ignore and still believe in the "Authoritative Word of God" that you refer us to so often?

curlew wrote: Did somebody assert that there is not such thing as objective truth?

Yes, MG did.

Specifically, he said that having an open mind means "NEVER being certain about ANYTHING" (emphasis his).

Per your counterexample, we can be certain that 1 + 1 = 2. Therefore, MG's notion of an open mind is logically untenable.

Simply being certain of something doesn't mean one has a closed mind. The question is whether that something is true or false.

Tortoise wrote:

curlew wrote: Did somebody assert that there is not such thing as objective truth?

Yes, MG did.

Specifically, he said that having an open mind means "NEVER being certain about ANYTHING" (emphasis his).

Per your counterexample, we can be certain that 1 + 1 = 2. Therefore, MG's notion of an open mind is logically untenable.

Simply being certain of something doesn't mean one has a closed mind. The question is whether that something is true or false.

I'm sure that MG knows that 1 + 1 = 2 and was only speaking in the context of religion, which is the subject of this forum.

I think the kind of certainty he's talking about is the kind that causes one to be believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old because an ancient book says so despite evidence to the contrary or that causes people to fly planes into the side of buildings because they are certain that Allah will be pleased and reward them with 70 virgins in heaven.

curlew wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:I can't speak for the Christians you know, but we have discussed it in Bible study and our Pastor has preached on it. Certainly not ignored by my Christian friends.

Blessings curlew.

...Mountaineer

So what do your pastor and friends have to say about it? Should women keep silent in the churches or not, and if not, why not? How do you go about figuring out which Bible verses you can ignore and still believe in the "Authoritative Word of God" that you refer us to so often?

curlew,

It is best not to ignore any Holy Scripture but to interpret and understand it in context. Also, I'm not going to go down any rabbit holes right now that I've already been down and explained. I accept you do not agree with the couple of million LCMS people's interpretation or understanding, so to use a cliche, no need to beat a dead horse.

Blessings on this wonderful day God has made.

... Mountaineer