Gyroscopic Investing

moda0306 wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: I think the federal government is best option at providing a wide military defense.  Currently optimal?  Of course not.  Best option we have, considering the broad alternatives?  IMO, yes.

It's a FACT..............






that this is your opinion

I love when opinions are turned into facts and facts are called opinions (you didn't do this).

What is your point?


Of course it is a FACT that people may have opinions.  That is different than stating your opinion as if those assertions (not the fact that you hold them) are facts.

You said "you can't possibly believe this."  Well ask most Americans, and you'll probably find that at least 90% of them believe the federal government is better at some things than "the market."  Why is it so flabbergasting that he might possibly believe that?

I'm not saying it's true.  That's a different debate.  But why would we ever be surprised that someone holds an opinion that most people do, generally?

moda0306 wrote: You said "you can't possibly believe this."  Well ask most Americans, and you'll probably find that at least 90% of them believe the federal government is better at some things than "the market."  Why is it so flabbergasting that he might possibly believe that?

I'm not saying it's true.  That's a different debate.  But why would we ever be surprised that someone holds an opinion that most people do, generally?

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: You said "you can't possibly believe this."  Well ask most Americans, and you'll probably find that at least 90% of them believe the federal government is better at some things than "the market."  Why is it so flabbergasting that he might possibly believe that?

I'm not saying it's true.  That's a different debate.  But why would we ever be surprised that someone holds an opinion that most people do, generally?

Because it sounds so utterly insane. 90% of Americans might believe this. 90% of Americans probably can't find Ukraine on a map or even know what century the Civil War was fought in.

This is a forum for I think intelligent people. The idea that "That fact is, most humans are caring and worry about others and central government is the most efficient way to allocate resources to them, especially non-secularly." is silly. It's also self-contradicting.

If most people are caring and worry about others then why on Earth would we need a Central government to help them and how could that possibly be the most efficient way?!?!?!

Even if you believe it's the most efficient way (laughable), you can't possibly believe that the majority of people care and worry about others. If that was actually the case then the problem would solve itself if the government stopped making it bigger.

That's why I doubt he actually believes this. If he said instead "Most people are greedy and uncaring therefore we need a central gubmit blah blah....", I would believe it.

moda0306 wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

moda0306 wrote: You said "you can't possibly believe this."  Well ask most Americans, and you'll probably find that at least 90% of them believe the federal government is better at some things than "the market."  Why is it so flabbergasting that he might possibly believe that?

I'm not saying it's true.  That's a different debate.  But why would we ever be surprised that someone holds an opinion that most people do, generally?

Because it sounds so utterly insane. 90% of Americans might believe this. 90% of Americans probably can't find Ukraine on a map or even know what century the Civil War was fought in.

This is a forum for I think intelligent people. The idea that "That fact is, most humans are caring and worry about others and central government is the most efficient way to allocate resources to them, especially non-secularly." is silly. It's also self-contradicting.

If most people are caring and worry about others then why on Earth would we need a Central government to help them and how could that possibly be the most efficient way?!?!?!

Even if you believe it's the most efficient way (laughable), you can't possibly believe that the majority of people care and worry about others. If that was actually the case then the problem would solve itself if the government stopped making it bigger.

That's why I doubt he actually believes this. If he said instead "Most people are greedy and uncaring therefore we need a central gubmit blah blah....", I would believe it.

Sheesh.  Well 90% of people make up the economy, K.  These are the people whom you believe will flourish in the massive popularity contest that is an economy.  You're obviously out of touch with them (as I may be)... so how can you really be so sure if people are just. so. damned. stupid?

And he didn't say anything about whether people would help the elderly... he said, roughly, that "people believe that the federal government is the best way to allocate resources to them." 

Nobody's denying that good deeds would be done, or even done with just as much (if not more) abundance in terms of pure effort, if the federal government didn't do them.  What MG is saying is that many people believe that the government is the most EFFICIENT & effective way to deliver those services on a consistent level.

Perhaps it's foolish to believe, but it certainly isn't impossible to fathom that others believe it... because many do!

Kshartle wrote: 1. Something is real, even if we don't understand it or see it.

2. We are a part of that reality, in some form or another.

Mountaineer wrote:

Kshartle wrote: 1. Something is real, even if we don't understand it or see it.

2. We are a part of that reality, in some form or another.

I'll start with a small bite rather than comment on all 17. 

Re. 1 - I will agree that something "can be" real, but I disagree with "is" because it is possible that "something" might not be real .... for example a flat earth (in the macro and not micro sense).  K, Please clarify your definition of "real" as I may have misunderstood your intent.

Re. 2 - I will agree that we "can be" part of that reality, but I disagree with we "are".  Some have made a case that we can exist outside of the reality that "can be" real, even if we do not understand it or see it (e.g. "Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul" by William Bray).  K, please clarify your definition of "reality" as I again may have misunderstood your intent.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote: One more small bite:

Re. premise 11 - Are you purposely excluding all defnitions other that what you gave?  For example, are there specific parts of the following definitions you wish to exclude in your defintion of "right"?  If so, why?  And, what part of speech are you using for your definition as there are several that could apply?

... Mountaineer

right |r?t|
adjective
1 morally good, justified, or acceptable: I hope we're doing the right thing | [ with infinitive ] : you were quite right to criticize him.
2 true or correct as a fact: I'm not sure I know the right answer | her theories were proved right.
• [ predic. ] correct in one's opinion or judgment: she was right about Tom having no money.
• used as an interrogative at the end of a statement as a way of inviting agreement, approval, or confirmation: you went to see Angie on Monday, right?
• according to what is correct for a particular situation or thing: is this the right way to the cottage? | you're not holding it the right way up.
• the best or most suitable of a number of possible choices for a particular purpose or occasion: he was clearly the right man for the job | I was waiting for the right moment to ask him.
• socially fashionable or important: he was seen at all the right places.
• [ predic. ] in a satisfactory, sound, or normal state or condition: that sausage doesn't smell right | if only I could have helped put matters right.
3 on, toward, or relating to the side of a human body or of a thing that is to the east when the person or thing is facing north: my right elbow | her right shoe | the right edge of the field.
4 [ attrib. ] informal, chiefly Brit.complete; absolute (used for emphasis, typically in derogatory contexts): I felt a right idiot.
5 of or relating to a person or political party or grouping favoring conservative views: are you politically right, left, or center?
adverb
1 [ with prepositional phrase ] to the furthest or most complete extent or degree (used for emphasis): the car spun right off the track | I'm right out of ideas.
• exactly; directly (used to emphasize the precise location or time of something): Harriet was standing right behind her.
• informal immediately; without delaying or hesitating: I'll be right back.
• [ as submodifier ] dialect or archaic very: it's right spooky in there!
2 correctly: he had guessed right.
• in the required or necessary way; properly; satisfactorily: nothing's going right for me this season.
3 on or to the right side: turn right at Main Street.
noun
1 that which is morally correct, just, or honorable: she doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong | the rights and wrongs of the matter.
2 a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way: [ with infinitive ] : she had every right to be angry | you're quite within your rights to ask for your money back | there is no right of appeal against the decision.
• (rights) the authority to perform, publish, film, or televise a particular work, event, etc.: they sold the paperback rights.
3 (the right) the right-hand part, side, or direction: take the first turning on the right | (one's right) : she seated me on her right.
• (in football or a similar sport) the right-hand half of the field when facing the opponent's goal.
• (right) Baseball short for right field: a looping single to right.
• the right wing of an army.
• a right turn: he made a right in Dorchester Avenue.
• a road or entrance on the right: take the first right over the stream.
• (esp. in the context of boxing) a person's right fist.
• a blow given with this: the young cop swung a terrific right.
4 (often the Right) [ treated as sing. or pl. ] a grouping or political party favoring conservative views and supporting capitalist economic principles.[ see right wing.]
verb [ with obj. ]
restore to a normal or upright position: we righted the capsized dinghy.
• restore to a normal or correct condition or situation: righting the economy demanded major cuts in defense spending.
• redress or rectify (a wrong or mistaken action): she was determined to right the wrongs done to her father.
• (usu. be righted) archaic make reparation to (someone) for a wrong done to them: we'll see you righted.
exclam. informal
used to indicate one's agreement with a suggestion or to acknowledge a statement or order: “Barry's here.”? “Oh, right”? | right you are, sir.
• used as a filler in speech or to introduce an utterance, exhortation, or suggestion: and I didn't think any more of it, right, but Mom said I should take him to a doctor | right, let's have a drink.
PHRASES
bang (or dead) to rights informal (of a criminal) with positive proof of guilt: we've got you bang to rights handling stolen property.
be in the right be morally or legally justified in one's views, actions, or decisions.
by rights if things had happened or been done fairly or correctly: by rights, he should not be playing next week.
do right by treat (someone) fairly.
in one's own right as a result of one's own claims, qualifications, or efforts, rather than an association with someone else: he was already established as a poet in his own right.
(not) in one's right mind (not) sane.
not right in the head informal (of a person) not completely sane.
(as) of right (or by right)as a result of having a moral or legal claim or entitlement: the state will be obliged to provide health care and education as of right.
put (or set) someone right 1 restore someone to health. 2 make someone understand the true facts of a situation.
put (or set) something to rights restore something to its correct or normal state or condition.
(as) right as rain informal (of a person) feeling completely well or healthy, typically after an illness or minor accident.
right away see straight away at straight.
right enough informal certainly; undeniably: your record's bad right enough.
right on informal used an expression of strong support, approval, or encouragement. See also right-on.
a right one Brit. informal a silly or foolish person.
she's (or she'll be) right Austral. informal that will be all right; don't worry.
DERIVATIVES
rightable adjective.
righter noun.
rightish adjective.
rightness noun
ORIGIN Old English riht (adjective and noun), rihtan (verb), rihte (adverb), of Germanic origin; related to Latin rectus ‘ruled,’ from an Indo-European root denoting movement in a straight line.
right field |ra?t fild| (also right)
nounBaseball
the part of the outfield to the right of center field from the perspective of home plate: a ball hit to right field.
• the position of the defensive player stationed in right field: he first gained attention while playing right field.
DERIVATIVES
right fielder noun

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:

Kshartle wrote: 1. Something is real, even if we don't understand it or see it.

2. We are a part of that reality, in some form or another.

I'll start with a small bite rather than comment on all 17. 

Re. 1 - I will agree that something "can be" real, but I disagree with "is" because it is possible that "something" might not be real .... for example a flat earth (in the macro and not micro sense).  K, Please clarify your definition of "real" as I may have misunderstood your intent.

Re. 2 - I will agree that we "can be" part of that reality, but I disagree with we "are".  Some have made a case that we can exist outside of the reality that "can be" real, even if we do not understand it or see it (e.g. "Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul" by William Bray).  K, please clarify your definition of "reality" as I again may have misunderstood your intent.

... Mountaineer

1. Something exists. There is such a thing as existance or reality or whatever. This sounds really really basic, and it is.

2. Reality is what really is, regardless of our interpretation of it. If we exist, by default we are a part of reality.

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: One more small bite:

Re. premise 11 - Are you purposely excluding all defnitions other that what you gave?  For example, are there specific parts of the following definitions you wish to exclude in your defintion of "right"?  If so, why?  And, what part of speech are you using for your definition as there are several that could apply?

... Mountaineer

right |r?t|
adjective
1 morally good, justified, or acceptable: I hope we're doing the right thing | [ with infinitive ] : you were quite right to criticize him.
2 true or correct as a fact: I'm not sure I know the right answer | her theories were proved right.
• [ predic. ] correct in one's opinion or judgment: she was right about Tom having no money.
• used as an interrogative at the end of a statement as a way of inviting agreement, approval, or confirmation: you went to see Angie on Monday, right?
• according to what is correct for a particular situation or thing: is this the right way to the cottage? | you're not holding it the right way up.
• the best or most suitable of a number of possible choices for a particular purpose or occasion: he was clearly the right man for the job | I was waiting for the right moment to ask him.
• socially fashionable or important: he was seen at all the right places.
• [ predic. ] in a satisfactory, sound, or normal state or condition: that sausage doesn't smell right | if only I could have helped put matters right.
3 on, toward, or relating to the side of a human body or of a thing that is to the east when the person or thing is facing north: my right elbow | her right shoe | the right edge of the field.
4 [ attrib. ] informal, chiefly Brit.complete; absolute (used for emphasis, typically in derogatory contexts): I felt a right idiot.
5 of or relating to a person or political party or grouping favoring conservative views: are you politically right, left, or center?
adverb
1 [ with prepositional phrase ] to the furthest or most complete extent or degree (used for emphasis): the car spun right off the track | I'm right out of ideas.
• exactly; directly (used to emphasize the precise location or time of something): Harriet was standing right behind her.
• informal immediately; without delaying or hesitating: I'll be right back.
• [ as submodifier ] dialect or archaic very: it's right spooky in there!
2 correctly: he had guessed right.
• in the required or necessary way; properly; satisfactorily: nothing's going right for me this season.
3 on or to the right side: turn right at Main Street.
noun
1 that which is morally correct, just, or honorable: she doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong | the rights and wrongs of the matter.
2 a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way: [ with infinitive ] : she had every right to be angry | you're quite within your rights to ask for your money back | there is no right of appeal against the decision.
• (rights) the authority to perform, publish, film, or televise a particular work, event, etc.: they sold the paperback rights.
3 (the right) the right-hand part, side, or direction: take the first turning on the right | (one's right) : she seated me on her right.
• (in football or a similar sport) the right-hand half of the field when facing the opponent's goal.
• (right) Baseball short for right field: a looping single to right.
• the right wing of an army.
• a right turn: he made a right in Dorchester Avenue.
• a road or entrance on the right: take the first right over the stream.
• (esp. in the context of boxing) a person's right fist.
• a blow given with this: the young cop swung a terrific right.
4 (often the Right) [ treated as sing. or pl. ] a grouping or political party favoring conservative views and supporting capitalist economic principles.[ see right wing.]
verb [ with obj. ]
restore to a normal or upright position: we righted the capsized dinghy.
• restore to a normal or correct condition or situation: righting the economy demanded major cuts in defense spending.
• redress or rectify (a wrong or mistaken action): she was determined to right the wrongs done to her father.
• (usu. be righted) archaic make reparation to (someone) for a wrong done to them: we'll see you righted.
exclam. informal
used to indicate one's agreement with a suggestion or to acknowledge a statement or order: “Barry's here.”? “Oh, right”? | right you are, sir.
• used as a filler in speech or to introduce an utterance, exhortation, or suggestion: and I didn't think any more of it, right, but Mom said I should take him to a doctor | right, let's have a drink.
PHRASES
bang (or dead) to rights informal (of a criminal) with positive proof of guilt: we've got you bang to rights handling stolen property.
be in the right be morally or legally justified in one's views, actions, or decisions.
by rights if things had happened or been done fairly or correctly: by rights, he should not be playing next week.
do right by treat (someone) fairly.
in one's own right as a result of one's own claims, qualifications, or efforts, rather than an association with someone else: he was already established as a poet in his own right.
(not) in one's right mind (not) sane.
not right in the head informal (of a person) not completely sane.
(as) of right (or by right)as a result of having a moral or legal claim or entitlement: the state will be obliged to provide health care and education as of right.
put (or set) someone right 1 restore someone to health. 2 make someone understand the true facts of a situation.
put (or set) something to rights restore something to its correct or normal state or condition.
(as) right as rain informal (of a person) feeling completely well or healthy, typically after an illness or minor accident.
right away see straight away at straight.
right enough informal certainly; undeniably: your record's bad right enough.
right on informal used an expression of strong support, approval, or encouragement. See also right-on.
a right one Brit. informal a silly or foolish person.
she's (or she'll be) right Austral. informal that will be all right; don't worry.
DERIVATIVES
rightable adjective.
righter noun.
rightish adjective.
rightness noun
ORIGIN Old English riht (adjective and noun), rihtan (verb), rihte (adverb), of Germanic origin; related to Latin rectus ‘ruled,’ from an Indo-European root denoting movement in a straight line.
right field |ra?t fild| (also right)
nounBaseball
the part of the outfield to the right of center field from the perspective of home plate: a ball hit to right field.
• the position of the defensive player stationed in right field: he first gained attention while playing right field.
DERIVATIVES
right fielder noun

The purpose of this is to determine what is morally correct therefore the first definition doesn't work since those words are the definition.

The second one is fine.

"right" for the purpose of this discussion is an adjective used to differentiate actions we "ought" to take vs. ones we "ought not" take.

Only adjective definitions are appropriate.

Kshartle wrote:11. The definition of “right”? is: In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct.
The definition of “wrong”? is: Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.

Money shot – Something (intentionally broad) is “right”? when it’s in accordance with objective reality and “wrong”? when it’s not in conformity with reality and our opinions can’t change that.

Kshartle wrote:17. Ought is a word used to describe the concept that if an action is correct that's what we should do. That's what correct means with regards to an action. A correct action is what we ought to do (this is just another definition of a correct action) and we ought to do what is correct.

Mountaineer wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: I'll start with a small bite rather than comment on all 17. 

Re. 1 - I will agree that something "can be" real, but I disagree with "is" because it is possible that "something" might not be real .... for example a flat earth (in the macro and not micro sense).  K, Please clarify your definition of "real" as I may have misunderstood your intent.

Re. 2 - I will agree that we "can be" part of that reality, but I disagree with we "are".  Some have made a case that we can exist outside of the reality that "can be" real, even if we do not understand it or see it (e.g. "Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul" by William Bray).  K, please clarify your definition of "reality" as I again may have misunderstood your intent.

... Mountaineer

1. Something exists. There is such a thing as existance or reality or whatever. This sounds really really basic, and it is.

2. Reality is what really is, regardless of our interpretation of it. If we exist, by default we are a part of reality.

1. But your premise did not say "something exists", it said "something is real" and I was asking for the definition of real.

Are you saying "everything that exists is real"?  Or, "everything that is real exists"?  There seems to be a difference in the two.  I'm not sure I get what you are stating as a premise.  I would agree with premise 1 if you said "Something exists, even if we don't understand it or see it".  Sorry for being so particular, but I thought I'd better buy in to your premises starting with number one rather than jumping in on number 2387 

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote: So, given adjective definition 2, what are you using for the "stake in the ground from which all things are measured" to say something is "right" - i.e. ' true or correct as a fact' since you later say facts can be disproven?

... Mountaineer

Kshartle wrote: Xan,

It will be impossible for me to respond to everyone's thoughts about stuff.

Please point out specifically if you disagree with something and explain why you disagree.

What do you disagree with, specifically?

Xan wrote:

Kshartle wrote: Xan,

It will be impossible for me to respond to everyone's thoughts about stuff.

Please point out specifically if you disagree with something and explain why you disagree.

What do you disagree with, specifically?

#11 is begging the question and should be removed.

#17 is circular and useless and should be removed.

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: So, given adjective definition 2, what are you using for the "stake in the ground from which all things are measured" to say something is "right" - i.e. ' true or correct as a fact' since you later say facts can be disproven?

... Mountaineer

I presented a definition of the word "right" as an adjective. Do you disagree with this definition?

A statement of fact can be proven false or true. An opinion cannot.

I did not say facts can be proven wrong. I said statements about them can be.

I think you are trolling now. As soon as I start up you begin nitpicking and needling and missquoting me, on things we covered months ago. Why? You were on this thread then.

Kshartle wrote:

Xan wrote:

Kshartle wrote: Xan,

It will be impossible for me to respond to everyone's thoughts about stuff.

Please point out specifically if you disagree with something and explain why you disagree.

What do you disagree with, specifically?

#11 is begging the question and should be removed.

#17 is circular and useless and should be removed.

So you disagree with the following definitions?

The definition of “right”? is: In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct.
The definition of “wrong”? is: Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.

Ought is a word used to describe the concept that if an action is correct that's what we should do.


How would you know what is useless? You've said repeatedly that this entire discussion is useless. I feel that your participation in it is useless, but I am trying to be accomodative.

Again, if you disagree please be specific. That means point out what you think is incorrect and why. Why are my definitions incorrect? The first two are websters. The second.....well......how would you define the word "ought"?

Try to be helpful.

moda0306 wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

Xan wrote: #11 is begging the question and should be removed.

#17 is circular and useless and should be removed.

So you disagree with the following definitions?

The definition of “right”? is: In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct.
The definition of “wrong”? is: Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.

Ought is a word used to describe the concept that if an action is correct that's what we should do.


How would you know what is useless? You've said repeatedly that this entire discussion is useless. I feel that your participation in it is useless, but I am trying to be accomodative.

Again, if you disagree please be specific. That means point out what you think is incorrect and why. Why are my definitions incorrect? The first two are websters. The second.....well......how would you define the word "ought"?

Try to be helpful.

Xan and K,

We agreed a while back that in the context of this discussion, "right" and "wrong" weren't morally-based yet.  Simply saying that a statement about nature is either true or untrue. The sky is blue: right. Dirt is lighter than air: wrong.

Regarding oughts, this one is more complex. We've been through this, but I'm wondering if we would do better to rehash that one out.

Mountaineer wrote:

moda0306 wrote:

Kshartle wrote: So you disagree with the following definitions?

The definition of “right”? is: In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct.
The definition of “wrong”? is: Not in conformity with fact or truth; incorrect or erroneous.

Ought is a word used to describe the concept that if an action is correct that's what we should do.


How would you know what is useless? You've said repeatedly that this entire discussion is useless. I feel that your participation in it is useless, but I am trying to be accomodative.

Again, if you disagree please be specific. That means point out what you think is incorrect and why. Why are my definitions incorrect? The first two are websters. The second.....well......how would you define the word "ought"?

Try to be helpful.

Xan and K,

We agreed a while back that in the context of this discussion, "right" and "wrong" weren't morally-based yet.  Simply saying that a statement about nature is either true or untrue. The sky is blue: right. Dirt is lighter than air: wrong.

Regarding oughts, this one is more complex. We've been through this, but I'm wondering if we would do better to rehash that one out.

Not to distract too far but I believe it is an important point:  The sky is not really a fixed blue, it only appears that way sometimes.  Thus the statement "the sky is blue" is neither fact nor true.  This is similar to the logic K is sometimes using in his premises: it seems he believes he has the "right or correct" definition but it may be due to a limited knowledge or understanding of a broader view (in my humble opinion).  Of course, I am guilty of the same thing for those areas in which I'm not so well versed  .
http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/sky_blue.html

... Mountaineer

moda0306 wrote:We agreed a while back that in the context of this discussion, "right" and "wrong" weren't morally-based yet.  Simply saying that a statement about nature is either true or untrue. The sky is blue: right. Dirt is lighter than air: wrong.