Gyroscopic Investing

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:29 am**

MediumTex wrote:
Will you forgive your son if he disobeys you and is bitten?
Forgiveness wouldn't enter into my thinking.

Why?
Because I would be more interested in trying to make sure he didn't die than in deciding how best to judge him.

How do the 6 assumptions above relate to the "scenario of the day"?
I don't know.

MT, thanks for answering the questions. I love this forum! And all its weird, intelligent, mostly kind, and curious characters.

Bingo on your above answers! (and I suspect you do know, or have the capability to figure it out).

... M

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:35 am**

Xan wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
In other words, why not nihilism, for the non-religious? Isn't that the logical end result?
I think that if religion is the umbrella, nihilism is the storm. It falls on us all and we each protect ourselves from it the best way we can using the tools our culture provides us with.
This means that your worldview/religion actually is nihilism then, right? So there is no "real" morality. There's no reason for some things to be right and others wrong. You wrap yourself in morality like an umbrella, but you know that ultimately the storm is the truth and that morality is an illusion that helps us get by. (I think Desert's point was that atheists try to "tack on" morality by appealing to nature, and that that's inconsistent with nihilism.)

I actually think the storm analogy is pretty good: the storm of chaos, nothingness, and destruction IS raging in this world, and will ultimately destroy it. And we do hold up umbrellas and idols to try to protect ourselves in this world. But in Christianity we have a sure and certain hope that there is a real world of which this is just a shadow. That when this world destroys itself, reality will go on. Reality came all the way to this shadow world to attach itself to us. As we have been Baptized and heard the Word and eaten the Supper, we have been grafted on to the "true vine", which will go right on living after the storm.

That's a pretty fancy umbrella you've got there.

It doesn't just block the rain, it annihilates it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:51 am**

I think you're right, Xan. If I'm really honest with myself, nihilism is ultimately my world view, and the moral feelings that I view as intrinsic are in a constant battle with the part of my brain that says, "nothing matters, your life isn't special, you're just an over-intelligent primate whose species has created a complex society that requires all this cultural baggage to function." And ultimately that's what I believe, even if I don't really like it. MT asked a little bit ago why anyone would believe anything that made them feel miserable and uneasy, and I think this qualifies. The answer is because I have a pathological need to seek out what I believe is the truth, no matter how deeply buried, and once I peeled away all the onion layers of the world around me, nihilism was the nugget I found in the middle. It is a rather depressing nugget, but I cannot seem to figure out how to make it go away. I can't open it up and see what's inside because it is what's inside, and I can't put back a couple of layers of the onion (of which religion is one) because I've already seen beyond them. Could you really be delighted by a magic trick whose secret you already know? If you really wanted to be delighted by it again, could you somehow force yourself despite possession of the knowledge that strips it of its mystery?

The way I see it, religion is built on morality, and morality is our brain's intrinsic defense against the nihilistic reality of life as a living creature. Religion attempts to bolster morality and builds on it, giving form and vigor to the otherwise nebulous and ill-defined moral feelings that are in all of us. In essence, we are so intelligent that we are vulnerable to nihilism, so we have this built-in system to stave it off that we have further strengthened by inventing religions. For some reason, this mechanism seems to be broken in me. I cannot resist opening the door that morality and religion try so hard to bar. It's just as MT said: I wish I could be religious, and gain the good feelings that all of you believers clearly feel and benefit from. But I can't seem to do it. The door to nihilism is already open. Even if I close and lock the door and never open it again, I've already seen the truth that it was meant to hide from me.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:05 am**

Pointedstick wrote: I think you're right, Xan. If I'm really honest with myself, nihilism is ultimately my world view, and the moral feelings that I view as intrinsic are in a constant battle with the part of my brain that says, "nothing matters, your life isn't special, you're just an over-intelligent primate whose species has created a complex society that requires all this cultural baggage to function." And ultimately that's what I believe, even if I don't really like it. MT asked a little bit ago why anyone would believe anything that made them feel miserable and uneasy, and I think this qualifies. The answer is because I have a pathological need to seek out what I believe is the truth, no matter how deeply buried, and once I peeled away all the onion layers of the world around me, nihilism was the nugget I found in the middle. It is a rather depressing nugget, but I cannot seem to figure out how to make it go away. I can't open it up and see what's inside because it is what's inside, and I can't put back a couple of layers of the onion (of which religion is one) because I've already seen beyond them. Could you really be delighted by a magic trick whose secret you already know? If you really wanted to be delighted by it again, could you somehow force yourself despite possession of the knowledge that strips it of its mystery?

The way I see it, religion is built on morality, and morality is our brain's intrinsic defense against the nihilistic reality of life as a living creature. Religion attempts to bolster morality and builds on it, giving form and vigor to the otherwise nebulous and ill-defined moral feelings that are in all of us. In essence, we are so intelligent that we are vulnerable to nihilism, so we have this built-in system to stave it off that we have further strengthened by inventing religions. For some reason, this mechanism seems to be broken in me. I cannot resist opening the door that morality and religion try so hard to bar. It's just as MT said: I wish I could be religious, and gain the good feelings that all of you believers clearly feel and benefit from. But I can't seem to do it. The door to nihilism is already open. Even if I close and lock the door and never open it again, I've already seen the truth that it was meant to hide from me.

You are echoing MT's love of Ecclesiastes (vanity, it is all vanity where vanity = meaninglessness). However, think about Ecc a bit more, read it again, and again. It is only meaningless without God - the only living God, not a god.

Where does that nugget nihilism come from?

Are you sure there is nothing in that nugget, or have you just not yet discovered the way to peel the nugget skin? How do you know?

Where do morals come from?

Where does our ability to ask those questions come from?

How do you know?

... M

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:13 am**

With all due respect, Mountaineer, I don't think you can help me. You're so deep into your world view that nothing makes sense to you unless seen within its context--a context that I lack. I do appreciate the sentiment behind the words.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:16 am**

PS,

I have come to view nihilism like the death of the person you love most in the world.

At first, the pain is so intense that it just washes over you like a wave of black despair. Then as you pull your head above the water all you see is a lonely black night filled with nothingness and no one.

Occasionally, you forget about the pain, and the moments when it comes crashing back in can be some of the worst, like ripping out the stitches from a carefully sutured wound.

It's awful.

As time passes, though, it can get better. And after a lot of time passes, the degree to which you can be healed can be shocking. Sometimes the scar can barely even be seen, and you may even find that when you think about it your thoughts are mostly pleasant, like a soldier reflecting on a war 50 years later, remembering the bad, but no longer feeling traumatized by it.

Not everyone gets through it like that, but it is possible to get through it like that. In other words, I don't think that nihilism is necessarily a chronic condition, though for many it obviously is. Religion, of course, offers a different type of solution to the problem, but as you noted some people are allergic to that type of medicine.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:57 pm**

Good works are God at work in us and through us. Thus, pure religion (genuine Christianity that is not feigned) is of God, not of man. It is not a construct at all except in so far as God constructed it. The Christian religion is God's saving grace in action, including the proclaimed Word, the Sacraments as God ordained them, and the faith-inspired loving acts of God's people, none of which are human constructs.

... M

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:46 pm**

Although I have rejected Christianity and probably all religion I don't think I could call myself a nihilist, if I understand the meaning of the term.

Maybe it has something to do with the drugs I took back in the 60's and 70's but I'm not able to completely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of meaning and purpose to life on planet earth. I've talked to people contemplating suicide in the past because they believe their life is meaningless and my advice is to ask how they can know whether their life is meaningless or not?. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The only way to find out is to see it through to the end and see what happens. So just consider it an adventure and go along for the ride. If it's meaningless, what have you got to lose any way?

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:12 pm**

Fred wrote: Although I have rejected Christianity and probably all religion I don't think I could call myself a nihilist, if I understand the meaning of the term.

Maybe it has something to do with the drugs I took back in the 60's and 70's but I'm not able to completely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of meaning and purpose to life on planet earth. I've talked to people contemplating suicide in the past because they believe their life is meaningless and my advice is to ask how they can know whether their life is meaningless or not?. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. The only way to find out is to see it through to the end and see what happens. So just consider it an adventure and go along for the ride. If it's meaningless, what have you got to lose any way?

Even if life has no more meaning than a day at Disneyland, it doesn't mean it can't be a very enjoyable experience, especially if you share the experience with people you care about.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:14 pm**

I'm with Fred.

The question is too big to be answered definitively in either direction. So one can believe in nothing, or believe in something - either choice has some supportive evidence.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:18 pm**

jafs wrote: I'm with Fred.

The question is too big to be answered definitively in either direction. So one can believe in nothing, or believe in something - either choice has some supportive evidence.

Given that there is no way to know for sure where we all came from or where we are all headed, I think that virtually any worldview ultimately rests on some set of beliefs about the unknown.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:29 pm**

I was reading a book yesterday that was defining Heaven and Hell in a way I hadn't thought about before.

1.) God is all that is good.
2.) God wants a relationship with his creation
3.) Evil is the absence of good. (like cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, etc. there is no unit of measurement for darkness, only for light)
4.) God gave us the ability of freewill
5.) From our perspective, even if God already knows which decision we'll make, we still make our own decisions
6.) If we choose to have a relationship with God, we will be with him for all eternity after we die.
7.) If we choose to not have a relationship with God, we will be without him for all eternity after we die.
8.) Being with God means being in all good (Heaven).
9.) Being without God means being in the absence of all good, i.e. evil (Hell).
10.) Hell is not meant to be a means to scare people regarding pain/torture/etc for eternity. It is the reality of what eternity/life will be like without being in the presence of good (God). Being without God will be living in evil which we feel like torture/pain/etc.

In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.

Much like going on a vacation with your significant other. What really matters is it's about the relationship, not where you go.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:34 pm**

Just appeared on Drudge. Seems highly relevant to recent discussions.

Belief in all-knowing, punitive gods aided the growth of human societies, study says.....

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencen ... story.html

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:44 pm**

Greg wrote: I was reading a book yesterday that was defining Heaven and Hell in a way I hadn't thought about before.

1.) God is all that is good.
2.) God wants a relationship with his creation
3.) Evil is the absence of good. (like cold is the absence of heat, darkness is the absence of light, etc. there is no unit of measurement for darkness, only for light)
4.) God gave us the ability of freewill
5.) From our perspective, even if God already knows which decision we'll make, we still make our own decisions
6.) If we choose to have a relationship with God, we will be with him for all eternity after we die.
7.) If we choose to not have a relationship with God, we will be without him for all eternity after we die.
8.) Being with God means being in all good (Heaven).
9.) Being without God means being in the absence of all good, i.e. evil (Hell).
10.) Hell is not meant to be a means to scare people regarding pain/torture/etc for eternity. It is the reality of what eternity/life will be like without being in the presence of good (God). Being without God will be living in evil which we feel like torture/pain/etc.

In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.

Much like going on a vacation with your significant other. What really matters is it's about the relationship, not where you go.

Another thought is that everything conventional Christianity projects into eternity is actually intended to be experienced in each moment, for as long as you experience moments.

When Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21), I think this is what he was getting at.

Like the statue of David was lurking within the block of marble, so too does the Kingdom of God lurk within us. We must simply cultivate and refine it.

Other belief systems attempt to do the same thing because this moment is really all that we know for sure even exists. The past and future are phantoms, projections, and abstractions that simply color the way we experience this moment.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:04 pm**

Greg wrote: In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.

So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?

A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.

Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:06 pm**

MediumTex wrote: Another thought is that everything conventional Christianity projects into eternity is actually intended to be experienced in each moment, for as long as you experience moments.

When Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21), I think this is what he was getting at.

Like the statue of David was lurking within the block of marble, so too does the Kingdom of God lurk within us. We must simply cultivate and refine it.

Other belief systems attempt to do the same thing because this moment is really all that we know for sure even exists. The past and future are phantoms, projections, and abstractions that simply color the way we experience this moment.

I agree, the Kingdom of God is within us. Through a relationship with God, we can have him in our hearts on earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:13 pm**

Fred wrote:
Greg wrote: In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?

A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.

Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.

Regarding capitalization, I tend to capitalizes places. I consider Heaven and Hell to both be places, that's all.

And to your point, again I think we're mixing apples and oranges. It's either you want a relationship with God or you don't. Depending on your decision, God will honor your request and send you where you want to go. This may seem petty but I think it is good to highlight this difference in thinking. Someone doesn't make the decision to go to Hell. They make the decision to not have a relationship with God which then leads to going to Hell.

Same with food. The decision isn't to either eat or die. The decision is to eat or not eat. From that (assuming you didn't eat poison), you either live or you die based on your decision.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:15 pm**

Greg wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Another thought is that everything conventional Christianity projects into eternity is actually intended to be experienced in each moment, for as long as you experience moments.

When Jesus said “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21), I think this is what he was getting at.

Like the statue of David was lurking within the block of marble, so too does the Kingdom of God lurk within us. We must simply cultivate and refine it.

Other belief systems attempt to do the same thing because this moment is really all that we know for sure even exists. The past and future are phantoms, projections, and abstractions that simply color the way we experience this moment.
I agree, the Kingdom of God is within us. Through a relationship with God, we can have him in our hearts on earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.

Maybe try it like this:

I agree that what Jesus is recorded as having referred to as the Kingdom of God may be cultivated is within us. Through meditation and reflection on this topic relationship with God, we can have this internal spiritual experience him in our hearts on earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the new sense of understanding and awareness relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this experience Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative philosophy and cultural belief systems about the meaning of life religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.

How's that?

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:20 pm**

Greg wrote:
Fred wrote:
Greg wrote: In a sense, I was worried about the wrong thing before. I was worried about going to Hell. This is the wrong way to frame it. I want to think of it as I want to have a relationship with all that is good (i.e. God) and by doing so, I won't have to worry about Hell.
So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?

A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.

Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.
Regarding capitalization, I tend to capitalizes places. I consider Heaven and Hell to both be places, that's all.

And to your point, again I think we're mixing apples and oranges. It's either you want a relationship with God or you don't. Depending on your decision, God will honor your request and send you where you want to go. This may seem petty but I think it is good to highlight this difference in thinking. Someone doesn't make the decision to go to Hell. They make the decision to not have a relationship with God which then leads to going to Hell.

Same with food. The decision isn't to either eat or die. The decision is to eat or not eat. From that (assuming you didn't eat poison), you either live or you die based on your decision.

Wouldn't it be more precise to say that we want the things that we believe will come from a relationship with God?

If you don't get anything out of a relationship that you believe you are having with a supernatural being, is it really a relationship?

As far as what we want from the relationship, I think that it's pretty safe to say that what most people want is an enhanced mental state of peace, equanimity and reduction of undesirable animal urges, along with a ticket to immortality at a nice address in the afterlife.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:53 pm**

MediumTex wrote:
Greg wrote:
Fred wrote: So it all boils down to you either have a personal relationship with God or you go to hell (why did you capitalize hell, btw)?

A hard choice, isn't it? God loves us and gives us free will so we can either choose to love him back or go to hell. You really have to think about that one.

Personally, I think you are living in a very dark place if that's what you believe but I'm sure Mountaineer will chime in and set us all straight about how wrong our thinking is.
Regarding capitalization, I tend to capitalizes places. I consider Heaven and Hell to both be places, that's all.

And to your point, again I think we're mixing apples and oranges. It's either you want a relationship with God or you don't. Depending on your decision, God will honor your request and send you where you want to go. This may seem petty but I think it is good to highlight this difference in thinking. Someone doesn't make the decision to go to Hell. They make the decision to not have a relationship with God which then leads to going to Hell.

Same with food. The decision isn't to either eat or die. The decision is to eat or not eat. From that (assuming you didn't eat poison), you either live or you die based on your decision.
Wouldn't it be more precise to say that we want the things that we believe will come from a relationship with God?

If you don't get anything out of a relationship that you believe you are having with a supernatural being, is it really a relationship?

As far as what we want from the relationship, I think that it's pretty safe to say that what most people want is an enhanced mental state of peace, equanimity and reduction of undesirable animal urges, along with a ticket to immortality at a nice address in the afterlife.

I partially agree with you on this. I say partially because I do want those things from being in a relationship with God. I however respectfully disagree due to this sounding then too much like a business transaction. It makes it sound like I'm friends with the stinky kid down the street only because he has a Nintendo system. Ideally it should be that I just really like the guy, I enjoy sharing experiences with him, and he just happens to have a Nintendo as a perk. You can boil down I think any relationship into it's particular parts that you desire, but this is missing the seeing of the forest for the trees then.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:57 pm**

MediumTex wrote: Maybe try it like this:

I agree that what Jesus is recorded as having referred to as the Kingdom of God may be cultivated is within us. Through meditation and reflection on this topic relationship with God, we can have this internal spiritual experience him in our hearts on Earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the new sense of understanding and awareness relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this experience Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative philosophy and cultural belief systems about the meaning of life religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.

How's that?

Looks pretty good to me. Looks to broaden however the idea of the personal god for general spirituality however. Not a bad thing, just become less defined then and could meet various religions then (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc.). It also makes Jesus seem more of a guru than anything else so I believe it lessens his standing in my eyes.

Also to Fred, I missed capitalizing "Earth". That was a inconsistency on my part and I apologize for it.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:09 pm**

Desert wrote: Isn't it even worse than that? Every human will die (with the possible exception of MG, because supplements). It's almost like God views physical death differently than we do.

I have a theory that Machine Ghost actually keeps on leaving us because he keeps reaching Moksha/Nirvana due to the supplements but it hasn't quite set in yet. Like a tv that has a screen that flickers or an airplane that keeps bouncing and almosttt gets off the ground fully and flies.

Posted: **Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:50 pm**

Greg wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Maybe try it like this:

I agree that what Jesus is recorded as having referred to as the Kingdom of God may be cultivated is within us. Through meditation and reflection on this topic relationship with God, we can have this internal spiritual experience him in our hearts on Earth. We then live in the present and enjoy the new sense of understanding and awareness relationship and how it changes as we grow older to ideally become more beautiful. I also agree with you that other belief systems attempt to work on the same lines for having this experience Kingdom of God. It is very difficult to discern which one is correct without a lot of effort on our part (and effort from God as well), it's one of the reasons I like studying comparative philosophy and cultural belief systems about the meaning of life religions so that I am making an educated decision based on the information I'm taking in versus whatever culture I grew up in.

How's that?
Looks pretty good to me. Looks to broaden however the idea of the personal god for general spirituality however. Not a bad thing, just become less defined then and could meet various religions then (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc.). It also makes Jesus seem more of a guru than anything else so I believe it lessens his standing in my eyes.

Also to Fred, I missed capitalizing "Earth". That was a inconsistency on my part and I apologize for it.

I have always thought that the only real authority in the words of Jesus were how well his teachings worked in practice.

Since I don't really know the source of anything in the Bible, the only real test for truth I feel like I can rely on lies in following the instructions and seeing how well it actually works.

When you apply that standard, all of the supernatural stuff falls away (for me anyway), but what is left is still entirely adequate, at least when it comes to the words of Jesus (again, for me).

I have said this before, but I almost feel like when a teaching is accompanied by supernatural acts, it's almost like I am being told that the teachings somehow don't stand on their own, and they need supernatural support to establish their legitimacy. In other words, any supernatural claim makes me wonder why anyone felt it was necessary to add that element. That was sort of the approach Jefferson took with the Jefferson Bible--just the life story and the teachings with no miracles because they really aren't necessary to understand the essence of the message. Some think the miracles are essential. I don't.

For a new Christian, I almost think it would be better to study Christianity scrubbed of all supernatural elements. If Jesus is speaking for God or he is God, that should come through in the impact the teachings have on the lives of his followers.

Posted: **Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:30 am**

Or:

You shall know them by their fruits.

I'm in a lot of agreement with you about Jesus' teachings/ministry, and think he wanted people to follow his example, rather than believe in him in some particular way.

Unfortunately, it seems difficult for people to understand and follow those teachings, and there have been a lot of additions/overlays/distortions over the years since then. Gandhi said Christianity sounds like a good idea, we should try it. And, I like Christ a lot, but he's awfully different from those Christians. Or words to that effect.

I suspect if it were possible to go back and meet Jesus, and show him what's been done in his name since then, that he'd be sad and disappointed about a lot of it.

Posted: **Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:16 pm**

I've been enjoying reading this exchange on religion. The discussion topic can include other religions. Today, a friend sent a group email that resonated with me and felt like a breath of fresh air. Below is the gist of it:

I recommend The Awakening of the West: the Encounter of Buddhism and Western Culture, by Stephen Batchelor, 1994, and thought of you-all when I read the following. Perhaps you'll enjoy it, too:

"The notion that Zen is somehow beyond all philosophical views and denominational affiliations has its origins in Zen Buddhism's classic definition of itself:
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence upon words and letters;
Direct pointing at the human heart;
Seeing into one's nature and the realization of
Buddhahood."

and, if you have time for a little more:
Tamdin Rabten [lharampa geshe, after 20 years study] then was in retreat "to realize experientially what he had mastered intellectually. In particular, his meditation focused on the meaning of transparency:

When I examined this old monk who previously seemed so existent,
He turned out to be just like the tracks of a bird in the sky.

...His meditation unfolds as 'a battle between reason and appearance', in which, having logically critiqued the felt-sense of a 'real' self-identity, he absorbed himself in the resultant loss of that sense. Then:
While absorbed in the sphere of the mind's
Transparency,
I precisely examined the ways in which
Merely nominal things were able to function.

Having exposed the fiction of a reified self and world, he analysed how self and the world nonetheless function in a meaningful and value-ordered way. These reflections led him to realize that compassion is the spontaneous reflex of the understanding of transparency and interdependence. 'I became convinced,' he wrote, 'that rather than making vast offerings at a temple, it was better to give a bowlful of food to an unfortunate dog.' "

Gyroscopic Investing

Figuring Out Religion

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion

Re: Figuring Out Religion