Figuring Out Religion

[jafs]

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Were you born believing that, or did it happen at some later point in your life?  Perhaps you could describe how/when you started believing as you do.

Also, I noticed that Xan has stopped responding and you've started, which is fine, but I don't think of the two of you as identical, unless Xan is ok with you speaking "for him/her".

Do you really believe "everything" is a gift from God?  What about suffering/disease/illness/death?

[Mountaineer]

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Were you born believing that, or did it happen at some later point in your life?  Perhaps you could describe how/when you started believing as you do.

Later in life.  Starting about 15 years ago whenever I attended a church that did not have "1. confession and absolution, 2. a Scriptural sermon (not one dealing with the Pastor's life or how to live mine), and 3. communion" I left feeling (in the body, mind, and emotional senses) that I had not really attended church.  About 5 years ago I started attending the LCMS church - a small slice heaven on earth as I subsequently discovered!  And further more, it was a real "God guided" process that got me to the LCMS church the first time - let's just say I do not believe in coincidences.  Also starting about 15 years ago, I decided (God decided?) to get far more knowlegable about Christian religion - I read the Bible several times in different translations, I read over a hundred theology books, I attended several Bible studies a week, I listened to countless podcasts, I routinely had coffee and lunch with 5 different Pastors and would question them on everything I could think of.  I could find no holes in LCMS (Christian) theology; I know others do, but somehow, it all makes perfectly clear sense when one understands the whole picture.  It is the verse or out of context cherry pickers that have the issues, in my opinion.  I think it is also a case of the more effort one puts into thoroughly understanding a topic, the better they are at discerning when someone tries to serve up BS and call it truth.  Or when someone complains that something is in error when they are at best a novice in the topic - that does not pass the smell test.    Does this get at what you are asking?

... Mountaineer

[Greg]

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Trying to get out of circular stuff and religious texts, I've been working on this presentation for a while for myself to get better acquainted with other religions and the logical reasonings for believing what I believe. Below is a link to the powerpoint I've made thus far. If there is interest in others for updating it, I will turn it into a Google Drive version of it so that everyone can edit it and fill in areas that I'm weak in. Note this is still rough draft form, doesn't have a complete "story" yet, and formatting is a mess.

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Greg's Comparison of Religions Presentation https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing
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Hopefully by putting more into a presentation format, we'll have more lasting progress than 250 pages of a thread (which have in all seriousness helped me with my own religious journey). Enjoy!

- Greg

[Mountaineer]

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Were you born believing that, or did it happen at some later point in your life?  Perhaps you could describe how/when you started believing as you do.

Also, I noticed that Xan has stopped responding and you've started, which is fine, but I don't think of the two of you as identical, unless Xan is ok with you speaking "for him/her".

Do you really believe "everything" is a gift from God?  What about suffering/disease/illness/death?

I am not responding for Xan.  Perhaps he is busy.  I was not busy and just jumped in to offer my thoughts.  Do you want me to stop or engage with you?

Everything a gift?  Yes.  When one realizes that he cannot eliminate suffering, or world hunger, or global warming/cooling, or war, or crappy bosses, no matter how hard he tries, he learns to depend on God and have peace no matter what the circumstances are.  Scripture clearly indicates being a Christian is not for the faint of heart.  Suffering is to be expected.  The "world" hates Christians, as the "world" hated Christ.  This life is not the end.  Suffering, disease, illness, and physical death are but minor bumps in the road.  Eternal life with a perfect body in the presence of Jesus will be awesome.  Do I enjoy getting a tooth filled?  No.  Is it worth the temporary discomfort to have a pain-free mouth for quite a while?  Yes. 

... Mountaineer

[Mountaineer]

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Trying to get out of circular stuff and religious texts, I've been working on this presentation for a while for myself to get better acquainted with other religions and the logical reasonings for believing what I believe. Below is a link to the powerpoint I've made thus far. If there is interest in others for updating it, I will turn it into a Google Drive version of it so that everyone can edit it and fill in areas that I'm weak in. Note this is still rough draft form, doesn't have a complete "story" yet, and formatting is a mess.

*********************************************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************************************
Greg's Comparison of Religions Presentation https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing
*********************************************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************************************

Hopefully by putting more into a presentation format, we'll have more lasting progress than 250 pages of a thread (which have in all seriousness helped me with my own religious journey). Enjoy!

- Greg

Impressive, I did not read every word and did not access the links, but I'll say again, impressive.  I'll bet you have learned quite a lot from investing in the work.  Keep on keeping on.  Where do you think you are strong, weak, not sure?

... Mountaineer

[jafs]

Well, not really.

It sounds as if you weren't feeling fulfilled at various other churches, and felt more so at LCMS churches.

That happens to a lot of people in different ways, I'm sure.  And, the things that are satisfying to some aren't to others.

If you create a circular, self-referential set of beliefs, then they are consistent with each other.  It also sounds as if that's very appealing to you - maybe that's why you felt so at home there.

None of that answers the question - is suffering a gift from God?  It paints a picture of how/why you come to accept it, based on your religious beliefs, but that's different.

[jafs]

Greg, a quick glance at your charts shows that although you speak of a "warm" deism that believes in an involved deity, you block that part red in your later comparison.

Seems to me that a warm deism would cover all of your bases as well.

Of course, calling something "wrong" because it doesn't have Jesus as a central figure is just another way of saying that you believe he is.  It doesn't prove that by any means.

[Mountaineer]

Well, not really.

It sounds as if you weren't feeling fulfilled at various other churches, and felt more so at LCMS churches.

That happens to a lot of people in different ways, I'm sure.  And, the things that are satisfying to some aren't to others.

If you create a circular, self-referential set of beliefs, then they are consistent with each other.  It also sounds as if that's very appealing to you - maybe that's why you felt so at home there.

None of that answers the question - is suffering a gift from God?  It paints a picture of how/why you come to accept it, based on your religious beliefs, but that's different.

I answered the question.  You just did not like the answer in my opinion.  What kind of answer are you looking for?

... Mountaineer

[Greg]

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Trying to get out of circular stuff and religious texts, I've been working on this presentation for a while for myself to get better acquainted with other religions and the logical reasonings for believing what I believe. Below is a link to the powerpoint I've made thus far. If there is interest in others for updating it, I will turn it into a Google Drive version of it so that everyone can edit it and fill in areas that I'm weak in. Note this is still rough draft form, doesn't have a complete "story" yet, and formatting is a mess.

*********************************************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************************************
Greg's Comparison of Religions Presentation https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing
*********************************************************************************************************
*********************************************************************************************************

Hopefully by putting more into a presentation format, we'll have more lasting progress than 250 pages of a thread (which have in all seriousness helped me with my own religious journey). Enjoy!

- Greg

Impressive, I did not read every word and did not access the links, but I'll say again, impressive.  I'll bet you have learned quite a lot from investing in the work.  Keep on keeping on.  Where do you think you are strong, weak, not sure?

... Mountaineer

Thanks for the compliment. I didn't actually realize when I uploaded the presentation, it didn't get the flowcharts correct on slide 3. Here is a PDF version for people to enjoy.

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PDF version with correct flow charts - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing
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I have learned a lot and also realized the blank spots I currently have.

Areas of weakness:
- Deism I could use some work on (Machine Ghost could help with that, on an old post he said that was a secular humanistic deist). Deism is difficult because it recognizes a God but everything else is only based on logic and reasoning, and finding non-biblical information to show that it is incorrect takes time. (Note I realize I'm biased but I'm trying not to be). The more information I find, the more my opinion sways
- General update on how I'm presenting information for each religion. Should flow and give a general executive summary overview of each religion. I would ideally like every religion within this presentation to have enough information to carry on a conversation with someone of that religious view. This would be to show respect for their religion, to facilitate additional knowledge transfer to fix holes in our understanding, and see if we can help each other on our religious journeys.
- Better job at showing why other religions fail in one way or another with regards to logic and better presentation of this.
-

[Greg]

Greg, a quick glance at your charts shows that although you speak of a "warm" deism that believes in an involved deity, you block that part red in your later comparison.

Seems to me that a warm deism would cover all of your bases as well.

Of course, calling something "wrong" because it doesn't have Jesus as a central figure is just another way of saying that you believe he is.  It doesn't prove that by any means.

You're right, I had cold deism as the red version for non-intention. As for warm deism, I might have to modify that chart for that and I just wrote that I could use some more help with that. I've got more to read up on it.

Also I don't mean to call it "wrong" for not having Jesus. I'd like to get more information to inform my current opinion or change it if need be. I'm ultimately looking for truth, even if it is difficult to get.

[Greg]

Greg, I really like your presentation!  Though the amount of information you could end up including is near infinite, I think you're off to a good start.  Let me know if there is anything I could do to help with it.  I'm thinking of a suggested reading list, for example.  Also, you might reach out to guys such as Ad Orientem for yet more info on Orthodox Christianity. 

Oh, and one little aside, and this is not a recommendation to change anything in your document.  But whenever I read that Christianity was founded in the first century, I have to remind myself that Christianity is not a different belief system than OT Judaism, though there is a huge new revelation in the first century that dramatically changes our understanding of God and his plan for our salvation.  But that plan was in place at the beginning of the world, and the OT points to Jesus throughout.

Thanks! Ideally I'd like to provide a lot of links to get people spun up on various religions and to just get people talking and informed about others views in conversations with people as they come up. And yeah if you have suggested reads, I could use that. I'm thinking this will be a document I'll be modifying and playing with for a few years as I get smarter.

And agreed to your point about when Christianity began. While it was pointed to prior to 30 A.D. in the old testament, it wasn't until after Jesus revealed this stuff that people should have started changing their beliefs from old school to new school.

[jafs]

I asked if you believed suffering was a gift from God, and you answered with how you have come to accept suffering, even though it's unpleasant.

That's not a direct answer.

If you believe suffering is a gift from God, how is it a gift?  Why is it good?

Greg, you have a whole list of different beliefs and why they're wrong.  That's fine, but they're just a statement of beliefs, for the most part.  I would say that we can't find the "truth" about ultimate issues in any sort of certain, intellectual way.  That's why we have faith/belief instead, for those things.

[Greg]

I asked if you believed suffering was a gift from God, and you answered with how you have come to accept suffering, even though it's unpleasant.

That's not a direct answer.

If you believe suffering is a gift from God, how is it a gift?  Why is it good?

Greg, you have a whole list of different beliefs and why they're wrong.  That's fine, but they're just a statement of beliefs, for the most part.  I would say that we can't find the "truth" about ultimate issues in any sort of certain, intellectual way.  That's why we have faith/belief instead, for those things.

Thanks for the constructive criticism. As I said it is still in rough draft form and needs expansion in various areas. Although if we can't find truth, then that really means you're just taking a gamble on which religion to follow. I think based on doing enough study, you can get a good enough understanding to make an informed decision. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

[jafs]

No problem.

Good luck with that - I'll be interested to see where you wind up.

[MachineGhost]

Also, I noticed that Xan has stopped responding and you've started, which is fine, but I don't think of the two of you as identical, unless Xan is ok with you speaking "for him/her".

I had thought Xan was Catholic, so I was a bit surprised to find out he's a Lutheran as well.  It did make me wonder if Mountaineer invited him over here or not.

[MachineGhost]

Greg's Comparison of Religions Presentation https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing

Looks great, but you omitted quite a lot of religions.  Practicality?

I like the sheer irony of using logic to prove that Christianity (Protestant) is the only True Religion by using Christianity (Protestant).  Of course "logic" feels logical when it is self-circular!  If you just rely on someone else's biased interpretation of why a religion that is not of their own religion is "wrong", all you're doing is accepting their own beliefs as yours.  There seems to be a remarkable amount of biased religious perspective on just about every topic under the sun.  That's called the confirmation bias.

I've got to hand it to Mountaineer and Xan though.  Of all the Bullshit they could have personally chosen, they settled for the one with the one with the least amount of apparent Bullshit.  That would be seductive to any highly intelligent True Believer.

[MachineGhost]

PDF version with correct flow charts - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing

You forgot Ignosticism which is distinct from either that of Atheism or Agnosticism, though some argue otherwise (not me).  Why is Ignosticism important?  Because you start getting down and dirty at the deepest levels of systemic thought itself instead of just taking conditional memes at face value and acting as if they are: a) valid b) true c) exist.

And before you consider religious mysticism as an explanation for anything, there is neurotheology:

At the same time While Persinger conducted his experiments, Vilayanur Ramachandran, Ph.D., director of the Brain and Perception Laboratory at the University of California at San Diego, also tuned in to the cosmic consciousness. He announced that he had discovered the 'God Module' in the brain which could be responsible for man's evolutionary instinct to believe in religion.

Ramachandran and his team studied the brains of people with an unusual type of epilepsy that affects the brain's temporal lobes. The study compared epileptic patients with normal people and a group who said they were intensely religious. Electrical monitors on their skin, a standard test of activity in the brain's temporal lobes, showed that the epileptics and the deeply religious displayed a similar response when shown words invoking spiritual belief.

According to the Ramachandran led research team, the most intriguing explanation is that the seizures cause an over-stimulation of the nerves in a part of the brain dubbed the God module. "There may be dedicated neural machinery in the temporal lobes concerned with religion. This may have evolved to impose order and stability on society." The results indicate that whether a person believes in a religion or even in God may depend on how enhanced is this part of the brain's electrical circuitry.

[MachineGhost]

- Deism I could use some work on (Machine Ghost could help with that, on an old post he said that was a secular humanistic deist). Deism is difficult because it recognizes a God but everything else is only based on logic and reasoning, and finding non-biblical information to show that it is incorrect takes time. (Note I realize I'm biased but I'm trying not to be). The more information I find, the more my opinion sways

Add ignosticism to the other three!  But I'm not an expert at any of the labels that seem appropriate for myself, so I really couldn't be an authoritative source for information about them.  I'm sure there are latter day equivalents of Dawkins and Hitchins for deism out there?

You could even say I am a deist only because I took a deist approach to becoming one!

[Greg]

Greg's Comparison of Religions Presentation https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1SRhu ... sp=sharing

Looks great, but you omitted quite a lot of religions.  Practicality?

I like the sheer irony of using logic to prove that Christianity (Protestant) is the only True Religion by using Christianity (Protestant).  Of course "logic" feels logical when it is self-circular!  If you just rely on someone else's biased interpretation of why a religion that is not of their own religion is "wrong", all you're doing is accepting their own beliefs as yours.  There seems to be a remarkable amount of biased religious perspective on just about every topic under the sun.  That's called the confirmation bias.

I've got to hand it to Mountaineer and Xan though.  Of all the Bullshit they could have personally chosen, they settled for the one with the one with the least amount of apparent Bullshit.  That would be seductive to any highly intelligent True Believer.

Mainly practicality. Also there is a greater chance of meeting someone from within the larger religions to have conversations with them. If you're going for a very small religion, there is diminishing returns. That being said, that doesn't necessitate that a small religion can't be correct.

I'd be curious as to what you would call logic and non-logic in some of these examples. For instance, I've always like the fact of God existing due to the 1st law of thermodynamics. Energy can not be created or destroyed so an entity (i.e. God), is, and always has been, and has the ability to create energy. That to me knocks atheism out in terms of being a realistic conclusion, or at least provides a demerit. Too many of those demerits and it starts looking like less of a real option of describing the universe.

[MachineGhost]

Greg, you have a whole list of different beliefs and why they're wrong.  That's fine, but they're just a statement of beliefs, for the most part.  I would say that we can't find the "truth" about ultimate issues in any sort of certain, intellectual way.  That's why we have faith/belief instead, for those things.

I disagree.  Faith is a lack of evidence; belief is a chosen meme.  Truth is subjective.  What you want to aim for is honest and objective evidence for picking memes to root inside your skull to believe in.  I haven't seen very much, if at all, of that kind of evidence in this thread since I joined, just circular logic arguments.  It is thus, so everything else must be so, etc..  Cogito ergo sum.

[MachineGhost]

Thanks for the constructive criticism. As I said it is still in rough draft form and needs expansion in various areas. Although if we can't find truth, then that really means you're just taking a gamble on which religion to follow. I think based on doing enough study, you can get a good enough understanding to make an informed decision. At least, that's what I'm hoping.

You need to be aware of this behavorial bias because you're already falling victim to it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_e ... chology%29

An informed decision cannot ever be truly informed if there are uninformed elements missing.

[MachineGhost]

I'd be curious as to what you would call logic and non-logic in some of these examples. For instance, I've always like the fact of God existing due to the 1st law of thermodynamics. Energy can not be created or destroyed so an entity (i.e. God), is, and always has been, and has the ability to create energy. That to me knocks atheism out in terms of being a realistic conclusion, or at least provides a demerit. Too many of those demerits and it starts looking like less of a real option of describing the universe.

First prove that the specific "God" you have in mind exists, then worry about the First Law of Thermodynamics and any correlation or relationship using logic or reason.  You can't put the cart before the horse, or its just the confirmation bias.  You can certainly do that if you want to remove nagging doubts about what you already believe so you can ultimately arrive at a more intimate relationship with it.  But be very clear about what you're really doing with that process (i.e. self-brainwashing).

I think agnosticism's and atheism's primary fault is operating under the assumption that "God" has a valid referent.  Doing so gives the concept legitimacy it may not deserve in the first place.  That's kind of the problem with metaphysics...  you can create things into being whether or not they literally exist... like Gobbel's Big Lie.

[Greg]

I'd be curious as to what you would call logic and non-logic in some of these examples. For instance, I've always like the fact of God existing due to the 1st law of thermodynamics. Energy can not be created or destroyed so an entity (i.e. God), is, and always has been, and has the ability to create energy. That to me knocks atheism out in terms of being a realistic conclusion, or at least provides a demerit. Too many of those demerits and it starts looking like less of a real option of describing the universe.

First prove that the specific "God" you have in mind exists, then worry about the First Law of Thermodynamics and any correlation or relationship using logic or reason.  You can't put the cart before the horse, or its just the confirmation bias.  You can certainly do that if you want to remove nagging doubts about what you already believe so you can ultimately arrive at a more intimate relationship with it.  But be very clear about what you're really doing with that process (i.e. self-brainwashing).

I think agnosticism's and atheism's primary fault is operating under the assumption that "God" is a valid referrant.  That gives the concept legitimacy it may not deserve in the first place.  That's kind of the problem with metaphysics...  you can create things into being whether or not they literally exist... like Gobbel's Big Lie.

That's why I just said an "entity" for God. Something created the universe due to how the 1st law works. By using the fossils we have now and logic, etc. we can piece backwards as to what was correct and what was not. I'd love if there was a better way to this that I'm not currently tracking.

Also, I saw this quote while reading and liked it:

"Remember, when you quote the bible to people that don’t believe in the bible you are no more likely to convince them of something then if you quoted something from a Harry Potter book”

I could say the same thing about the Qur'an which is one of the reasons I'm trying to do this study without the aid of holy books.

[MachineGhost]

That's why I just said an "entity" for God. Something created the universe due to how the 1st law works. By using the fossils we have now and logic, etc. we can piece backwards as to what was correct and what was not. I'd love if there was a better way to this that I'm not currently tracking.

What if that "something" was not an entity?  Given how spooky and strange the quantum physics reality is, I think relying on an "entity" for the Big Bang to have happened is unproven conjecture at best.  And what if there was an entity and it was an alien race that was far advanced enough as we will be some day (hopefully) and they did the equivalent of programming up a universe?  A far cry from that extremely narrow, arthropomorphic trinity of "God, the Father, the Son", yes?  My point being is you have to think outside the box because by defintion the box that you were put in is always camoflauge.  It is like a rat in a maze not having ever having an top down overview of the entire maze and doesn't see past the never-ending walls in front of him.

I think you could use a deep and critical encyclopedia of all the religions from a disinterested agostic or atheist if that isn't an oxymoron.  Anyone know if such a thing exists?

[Mountaineer]

I asked if you believed suffering was a gift from God, and you answered with how you have come to accept suffering, even though it's unpleasant.

That's not a direct answer.

If you believe suffering is a gift from God, how is it a gift?  Why is it good?

Greg, you have a whole list of different beliefs and why they're wrong.  That's fine, but they're just a statement of beliefs, for the most part.  I would say that we can't find the "truth" about ultimate issues in any sort of certain, intellectual way.  That's why we have faith/belief instead, for those things.

jafs,

Let me try again.  Look at the part I bolded below in my 5:23:57 pm post yesterday where I answered your question and said Everything is a gift.  That excludes nothing, e.g. it does not exclude suffering. Whether it is a good gift or a bad gift is in the eyes of the beholder.  Would you feel better if I just said everything comes from God and did not call it directly a gift?  I really do believe I answered your question. 

Now to address your new questions:  How is it a gift and why is it good?  By its very definition.  When one party gives another party something with no expectation of being repaid, it is commonly called a gift.  The gift is given regardless of whether one rejects it or how one accepts it.  Why is suffering good?  I can only answer from my perspective - one reason is because it has the potential to draw one closer to God and stop focusing on themselves.  Perhaps the suffering is God's judgment on something we did with the goal of getting our attention.  Perhaps we will never know the reason for the suffering on this side of physical death.  Regardless, the purpose is to cause us to repent and return to God and thus be able to live forever, with a perfect body, in a perfect place as God created it before man screwed up, in the presence of the one who creates everything.  I think that is preferable to all the other possible outcomes that might come from some temporary suffering.  If I'm wrong, what have I lost?  Pretty much nothing.  Don't you like bets that have only a win and no loss potential? 

If you have children, perhaps this example will help explain my thinking.  Let's say your 5 year old daughter gives you something she made in kindergarden art class.  She thinks it is beautiful and you think it is disgusting and looks like a mound of dog poop.  She wants you to display it on your desk at work.  If you do, many in your workplace may make fun of you, probably behind your back, but you know they are doing so from the snickers you overhear.  You "suffer" but are willing to do so because of the love you have for your daughter and you know that building the relationship with her is more important than the current snickers and suffering at work because of the dog poop look-alike on your desk.  Really poor example, but you can perhaps connect.  Perhaps a financial example would help.  You decide to invest your inheritance (a gift) in the Permanent Portfolio in hopes of future gain.  Suffer now from the loss of your cash that you could have bought that new Ferrari with (a focus on self and immediate gratification), for hopes of having more money and not having to eat cat food in your retirement (a focus of trust the PP to perform and delayed gratification).

... Mountaineer

Yes, you're just repeating your statements of faith.

I get that you believe that, and it's definitely circular, as is the idea of using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

Were you born believing that, or did it happen at some later point in your life?  Perhaps you could describe how/when you started believing as you do.

Also, I noticed that Xan has stopped responding and you've started, which is fine, but I don't think of the two of you as identical, unless Xan is ok with you speaking "for him/her".

Do you really believe "everything" is a gift from God?  What about suffering/disease/illness/death?

I am not responding for Xan.  Perhaps he is busy.  I was not busy and just jumped in to offer my thoughts.  Do you want me to stop or engage with you?

Everything a gift?  Yes.  When one realizes that he cannot eliminate suffering, or world hunger, or global warming/cooling, or war, or crappy bosses, no matter how hard he tries, he learns to depend on God and have peace no matter what the circumstances are.  Scripture clearly indicates being a Christian is not for the faint of heart.  Suffering is to be expected.  The "world" hates Christians, as the "world" hated Christ.  This life is not the end.  Suffering, disease, illness, and physical death are but minor bumps in the road.  Eternal life with a perfect body in the presence of Jesus will be awesome.  Do I enjoy getting a tooth filled?  No.  Is it worth the temporary discomfort to have a pain-free mouth for quite a while?  Yes. 

... Mountaineer