An excellent article on TDS

[dualstow]

racism... I wonder if it is part of human nature?

I believe moda said that on the previous page.

We have a serious problem with racism in this country, in the populace not just the current president.

We have a serious problem with racism in every country, not just this country. Hmmm, I wonder if it is part of human nature? What to do, what to do? How about just having color-blind policies? But that's far from what the leftists want.

By the way, I'm pretty sure I didn't move the goalposts. If you were to find my original post, I'm pretty sure it said something to the effect of "as President what specific actions has he taken?"

You're absolutely right, stuper. I reread and you did include "as president." My bad. That means I'm back to admitting that I can't think of any actions, only words.

[dualstow]

We have a serious problem with racism in this country, in the populace not just the current president.

Now that's the real question, isn't it? I hear that stated repeatedly, but every time a specific example comes up there are always nuances that undercut the claim that it's a racism issue.

"That it's a racism issue"- you mean the election victory or something else? I'm saying there is a racism issue, but not that it got Trump into power.

I would completely agree that people of a given minority race are economically unsuccessful in comparison to the white population. However, I don't think that's due to racism per se. I think it's more of a cultural divide issue.

Mmm, I definitely don't know the answer to that. I think it's both, but I don't know the ratio. But, it does seem like we're moving in the right direction.

Speaking for myself,
... Is that racist?

Of course you're not racist. If you are, then I am, too, because I share the same sentiments you listed.

[Libertarian666]

We have a serious problem with racism in this country, in the populace not just the current president.

Now that's the real question, isn't it? I hear that stated repeatedly, but every time a specific example comes up there are always nuances that undercut the claim that it's a racism issue.

I would completely agree that people of a given minority race are economically unsuccessful in comparison to the white population. However, I don't think that's due to racism per se. I think it's more of a cultural divide issue.

Speaking for myself, I have a completely different reaction to black/African colleagues or students at my workplace, compared to some black/African people I see on the subway with their pants hanging halfway down to their knees and their underwear showing in all its glory. I think you'd have a hard time calling me racist at work, but someone might make a case for the subway situation that I wouldn't be able to defend. Except that I think it's more about the ghetto culture (i.e. the "community" that Amazon apparently threatened via their proposal to move into Long Island City) than about skin color. Some aspects of it add a really nice colorful edge to this city, but others I find uncomfortable. Like, I really don't want to sit on a seat recently occupied by some dude's underwear. Is that racist?

I don't know what else to call it.

Other than possibly "a normal reaction".

[Libertarian666]

We have a serious problem with racism in this country, in the populace not just the current president.

Now that's the real question, isn't it? I hear that stated repeatedly, but every time a specific example comes up there are always nuances that undercut the claim that it's a racism issue.

I would completely agree that people of a given minority race are economically unsuccessful in comparison to the white population. However, I don't think that's due to racism per se. I think it's more of a cultural divide issue.

It depends on which minority race we're talking about.
Asians don't seem to be too unsuccessful compared to whites. Is that a cultural divide issue?
And of course Ashkenazis, although perhaps not really a race, are fairly successful as a group.

I guess we can't discuss what those two groups have in common, and in which they differ from the unsuccessful groups...

[dualstow]

I mean, black people are as disgusted by the pants hanging halfway down as are white people. Of course that's not racist. Toss that aside. However, from slavery to Rosa Parks to redlining, we have a history of racism. And, while we're steadily moving in the right direction, c'mon, real racism agains blacks is still alive and well. Not the "microaggressions" that overly sensitive people are complaining about. Real racism. No?

[dualstow]

It depends on which minority race we're talking about.
Asians don't seem to be too unsuccessful compared to whites. Is that a cultural divide issue?
And of course Ashkenazis, although perhaps not really a race, are fairly successful as a group.

I guess we can't discuss what those two groups have in common, and in which they differ from the unsuccessful groups...

The number one difference is that Asians and Ashkenazis weren't brought here as slaves. Of course, they faced their own specific uphill battles. Railroad coolies, etc. Even Irish were discriminated against, despite being white. We probably all know about the "No Dogs, No Irish" signs. So, there almost certainly is a biological component at work (behind all the oppression and discrimination). There's something biological behind rape, too, but we can't just let that run free.

[stuper1]

I mean, black people are as disgusted by the pants hanging halfway down as are white people. Of course that's not racist. Toss that aside. However, from slavery to Rosa Parks to redlining, we have a history of racism. And, while we're steadily moving in the right direction, c'mon, real racism agains blacks is still alive and well. Not the "microaggressions" that overly sensitive people are complaining about. Real racism. No?

I'd say no, not really. What have you seen that you believe is racism in action? Are there certain educational or career opportunities that are made harder for blacks than others? What else?

[dualstow]

Getting a cab?

[dualstow]

It's also still pervasive with real estate agents. They just use bywords like "diverse" as in "It's a diverse neighborhood" instead of telling prospective buyers outright, "Hey, there are a lot of back people in the neighborhood." That's from the lips of a real estate agent I know personally.

[Kriegsspiel]

It's also still pervasive with real estate agents. They just use bywords like "diverse" as in "It's a diverse neighborhood" instead of telling prospective buyers outright, "Hey, there are a lot of back people in the neighborhood." That's from the lips of a real estate agent I know personally.

Confirmed not RACISM racism. Some people prefer diverse neighborhoods. I see a variation of "we're looking for a diverse, walkable, blah blah blah" all the time on different sites.

[dualstow]

It's also still pervasive with real estate agents. They just use bywords like "diverse" as in "It's a diverse neighborhood" instead of telling prospective buyers outright, "Hey, there are a lot of back people in the neighborhood." That's from the lips of a real estate agent I know personally.

Confirmed not RACISM racism. Some people prefer diverse neighborhoods.

Many do, but according to her, that's not how it was being used.

[Kriegsspiel]

Um. Well I guess if she said it was being used for racism then she might be a racist. But calling neighborhoods diverse is a description of reality, not a sign that someone is racist.

[stuper1]

Cab drivers aren't stupid. They know that they get a lot more problems with people of certain skin colors. It's just statistics. A lot of this is just statistics. Certain skin colors have a higher percentage of problems, so people try to stay away from them just as a statistical matter to lessen their chances of having a problem.

Good luck if you think that some kind of legislation can stop people from being smart about statistics.

I don't see the racism in the real estate example. How is that racism to call a neighborhood diverse when it IS diverse? If people want to buy in a diverse neighborhood with black people, they will buy there. If they don't, they won't. What is the racism here? Is the government going to try to tell people where they have to live?

Anybody of any color who truly wants to get ahead in this society has as good a chance of achieving it here as they do anywhere. Are the Mexicans trying to break in here because it's worse here than it is back home?

[dualstow]

Cab drivers aren't stupid. They know that they get a lot more problems with people of certain skin colors. It's just statistics. A lot of this is just statistics. Certain skin colors have a higher percentage of problems, so people try to stay away from them just as a statistical matter to lessen their chances of having a problem.

I know. I have seen interviews of Arab drivers who explained why they keep driving when they see black people hailing them. It's easy for you and me to stop there, at that sentence, but what if you're a black guy trying to get a cab? You wouldn't rest here.

Good luck if you think that some kind of legislation can stop people from being smart about statistics.

I don't think that legislation can stop people from being smart about statistics.

I don't see the racism in the real estate example. How is that racism to call a neighborhood diverse when it IS diverse?

Um. Well I guess if she said it was being used for racism then she might be a racist. But calling neighborhoods diverse is a description of reality, not a sign that someone is racist.

She's not a racist. She said that realtors are frequently asked "Are there black people in the neighborhood?" to which they used to reply, "We're not allowed to answer that." She later learned that some realtors would use the diverse byword.

Hey, you guys can deny it all you want. You seem to know more than the one who experienced it. I'm just telling you what she said.

[Kriegsspiel]

Cab drivers aren't stupid. They know that they get a lot more problems with people of certain skin colors. It's just statistics. A lot of this is just statistics. Certain skin colors have a higher percentage of problems, so people try to stay away from them just as a statistical matter to lessen their chances of having a problem.

I know. I have seen interviews of Arab drivers who explained why they keep driving when they see black people hailing them. It's easy for you and me to stop there, at that sentence, but what if you're a black guy trying to get a cab? You wouldn't rest here.

It's a predicament, isn't it? Outside of dressing respectably and having a pleasant countenance, what can you do? I don't think the answer is to legally require people to do things that scares them.

She's not a racist. She said that realtors are frequently asked "Are there black people in the neighborhood?" to which they used to reply, "We're not allowed to answer that." She later learned that some realtors would use the diverse byword.

Hey, you guys can deny it all you want. You seem to know more than the one who experienced it. I'm just telling you what she said.

Describing reality should not be a crime.

[dualstow]

It is indeed a predicament, and I also don’t see any solutions in legislation. Personally, I just file this under meaning-no-harm racism, and I’m sure I’ve been guilty of it. Instead of a victimless crime, it’s something approaching a crime and a victim without a perpetrator, but not quite. Whatever it is, it is very real, and more important than semantic arguments.

Anyway, I don’t file it in the same place as the “Blacks are subhumans” kind of folks.

Describing reality should not be a crime

Hah. That’s a nice abstract statement that, lacking context, sounds reasonable.
What if describing reality = revealing the identities and locations of US agents to Putin’s FSB?*
What if it is a case of teaching terrorists how to blow up a hospital in Chicago?
And what if it’s used to marginalize a specific group of people?

*Edit: or maybe SVR would be the more appropriate agency.

[Kriegsspiel]

Describing reality should not be a crime

Hah. That’s a nice abstract statement that, lacking context, sounds reasonable.
What if describing reality = revealing the identities and locations of US agents to Putin’s FSB?*
What if it is a case of teaching terrorists how to blow up a hospital in Chicago?
And what if it’s used to marginalize a specific group of people?

*Edit: or maybe SVR would be the more appropriate agency.

Well, you got me there. In the context of a realtor describing a neighborhood, I think it's reasonable.

[WiseOne]

There is the whole "driving while black" thing, which is a real effect - but again, I think it is so much mixed in with cultural issues that it's hard to really say. Police patrolling scary neighborhoods are naturally going to be more on edge. I lived in West Philadelphia for a while during a particularly crime-prone period, and it gets very, very difficult not to take skin color & general demeanor & dress into account when trying to predict a stranger's actions.

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

[WiseOne]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

WiseOne,
Based on the above, what is your opinion on 'reparations' to descendants of slaves? That is now an official position of some of the 2020 Dems.

Haven't we been paying reparations for generations, in the form of welfare? I'm not against the idea as indeed, these slaves were systematically robbed for generations, but it clearly hasn't helped them. If anything, it's made things worse by entrenching them in a cycle of government dependency.

I'm afraid the only thing that's going to get these people out from under the legacy of slavery is that they have to fix their culture themselves, and quit using something that happened 150 years ago as an excuse. Also, once you start bringing up reparations, there are lots of groups just as deserving. How about Japanese-Americans descended from those who were rounded up in camps in the 1940s? How about Palestinian descendants who were victimized by the state of Israel? How about people who suffered through the Great Depression?
And on and on.

[moda0306]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

WiseOne,
Based on the above, what is your opinion on 'reparations' to descendants of slaves? That is now an official position of some of the 2020 Dems.

Haven't we been paying reparations for generations, in the form of welfare? I'm not against the idea as indeed, these slaves were systematically robbed for generations, but it clearly hasn't helped them. If anything, it's made things worse by entrenching them in a cycle of government dependency.

I'm afraid the only thing that's going to get these people out from under the legacy of slavery is that they have to fix their culture themselves, and quit using something that happened 150 years ago as an excuse. Also, once you start bringing up reparations, there are lots of groups just as deserving. How about Japanese-Americans descended from those who were rounded up in camps in the 1940s? How about Palestinian descendants who were victimized by the state of Israel? How about people who suffered through the Great Depression?
And on and on.

While I don't think of reparations as a particularly important issue to "defend against," your last points are exactly why I disagree with it and lean much more towards a citizen's dividend. We can't perfectly trace past wrongs, but we can ensure that folks don't have to be at the edge of starvation if they aren't able to work. Some of this is accomplished through our bumbled patchwork of a welfare state, but there are big holes, which is unfortunate, IMO. A floor to human misery achieves much of what reparations would with little of the associated animosity and negative attention that would come with it.

Add to that that 1800's industrial labor AND southern non-propertied white labor was only a few notches better than slavery itself AND had to compete with it, and it's a good reason that we should just avoid that battle altogether.

[jacksonM]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism? Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

WiseOne,
Based on the above, what is your opinion on 'reparations' to descendants of slaves? That is now an official position of some of the 2020 Dems.

Haven't we been paying reparations for generations, in the form of welfare? I'm not against the idea as indeed, these slaves were systematically robbed for generations, but it clearly hasn't helped them. If anything, it's made things worse by entrenching them in a cycle of government dependency.

I'm afraid the only thing that's going to get these people out from under the legacy of slavery is that they have to fix their culture themselves, and quit using something that happened 150 years ago as an excuse. Also, once you start bringing up reparations, there are lots of groups just as deserving. How about Japanese-Americans descended from those who were rounded up in camps in the 1940s? How about Palestinian descendants who were victimized by the state of Israel? How about people who suffered through the Great Depression?
And on and on.

There actually WERE some reparations paid to Japanese Americans in 1988 under Reagan. It was $20k for about 100k people but I think they had to have been the ones who were actually in the internment camps and not their descendants. The demand of reparations for slavery is much different because there aren't any former slaves still alive. And also, no Americans died in a civil war to free the Japanese from the camps, whereas 2% of the whole U.S. population, mostly all white males, died to free the slaves. Maybe the descendants of those people, at least the ones on the Union side, should be compensated also if we are going to go down that road.

[Kriegsspiel]

I'm fully on board with a Manna-style citizen's dividend (society, really). I just saw a story about a strawberry robot so... "we" are getting closer!

[dualstow]

Here's another interesting comparison: the fate of American blacks descended from slaves, vs. blacks who immigrated here more recently from Africa or the Caribbean. It turns out that new black immigrants are immediately much better off than native blacks. After the first generation, they are economically indistinguishable from the general population. Doesn't that undercut some of the claims about racism?

Could be, could be. You’d have to ask them, I guess, if they experience racism. The immigrants who speak King’s English- I always imagine that they had a good head start at home, educationwise, but of course I have no idea what proportion of them do.

I want to hear more about your experiences in Kenya sometime, btw.

Indeed, I think the word "racism" is basically a way to sweep the cultural problems under the rug, which isn't doing anyone any favors.

You’re talking about using it as an excuse, or....?
Last year, a professor was fired for using the n-word, but it was in a class about ethnic slurs and he had taught it for years. That was odd.
Another instructor was reprimanded and accused of racism for correcting the grammar of some black students. That’s also strange.

[dualstow]

I'm fully on board with a Manna-style citizen's dividend (society, really). I just saw a story about a strawberry robot so... "we" are getting closer!

A strawberry picking robot in the fields?

[Kriegsspiel]

Yup:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/nat ... 00018f7d4e