Gyroscopic Investing

Kbg wrote:My only comment on traveling to get your gold...if for some reason it is not accessible in the US due to gubmint confiscation and you want to come back to the US how does that work?

There's no point to travel to get your gold if you're not leaving the country temporarily or for good. Otherwise you can just have them deliver the gold to you or just liquidate your holdings and get the proceeds wired to you. Capital controls don't normally block money from coming into the country. Now that UK is out of the EU, it actually bodes well for BullionVault. You couldn't trust those EU elitists with anything, including not confiscating gold.

Kbg wrote:My only comment on traveling to get your gold...if for some reason it is not accessible in the US due to gubmint confiscation and you want to come back to the US how does that work?

If you are worried about practical stuff like your bank disappears in a gigantic sink hole taking your gold with it, wouldn't good old fashioned safety deposit box or other insurance work better?

You're asking good questions, but ultimately they should translate into your own personal answers & choices.
As you know, there is no one perfect decision that will endure in all situations.

Gees...you guys are so inconsistent. So a CBOE futures contract is going to blow up, yet you can still use the global financial system to wire the proceeds to you from liquidating your foreign gold holdings?



And for the record, as always, I firmly believe everyone should do exactly what they feel most comfortable with when it comes to their own resources. Just putting counter points to the dogma out there for consideration.

Kbg wrote:Gees...you guys are so inconsistent. So a CBOE futures contract is going to blow up, yet you can still use the global financial system to wire the proceeds to you from liquidating your foreign gold holdings?

And for the record, as always, I firmly believe everyone should do exactly what they feel most comfortable with when it comes to their own resources. Just putting counter points to the dogma out there for consideration.

A CBOE futures contract is a gambling instrument. It can go kablooey without much else being wrong.

But that aside, you are mixing up two situations.

1. Normal operation, in which case you can have your proceeds wired to you, or
2. A big mess, in which case if you can get out of the country, you can get your gold in person.

Of course, #2 requires that either you are already in your new location when the big mess starts (a better option if you have enough warning) or that the mess isn't big enough to prevent international travel (which it hasn't been in the past).

To be a bit snarky, gold is traded at the COMEX exchange. CBOE has a gold volatility product.

As far as it being a gambling product, you could also call IAU and GLD the same thing. You are relying on the exchange and clearing company blowing up or not. With all the regulation and capital requirements, the likelihood is the same as your need for that fully stocked doomsday bunker and plenty of guns. Of course, having gold in hand never hurt anyone.

Laker wrote:To be a bit snarky, gold is traded at the COMEX exchange. CBOE has a gold volatility product.

As far as it being a gambling product, you could also call IAU and GLD the same thing. You are relying on the exchange and clearing company blowing up or not. With all the regulation and capital requirements, the likelihood is the same as your need for that fully stocked doomsday bunker and plenty of guns. Of course, having gold in hand never hurt anyone.

Snark deserved...went off memory.

Ultimately you have paper/electronic digits representing something else or something tangible/physical held in your hand whether it is gold, cash, LTTs or stock. I've never claimed the former is more safe than the latter...but the former regardless of what it is is pretty much all the same during a SHTF event. Will Treasury have record of your bonds if there is an electromagnetic pulse event?

And very specifically, given BullionVault is really the former dressed as the latter I find the whole concern about COMEX/CBOE vs. BullionVault quite comical.

KBG, agreed. I don't know what else to say. Comical indeed. I would just add that the question becomes if you want to deal with the futures markets and rollover vs not.

Kbg wrote: Will Treasury have record of your bonds if there is an electromagnetic pulse event?

Right up until the moment they erase them on purpose. Oops.

Laker wrote:KBG, agreed. I don't know what else to say. Comical indeed. I would just add that the question becomes if you want to deal with the futures markets and rollover vs not.

More hassle no doubt.

I don't do a standard PP, I do one that uses 3x ETFs as I want more growth than I think is possible from the standard PP but I really like PP's diversification aspect and design vs. typical stock and bond only/heavy ports. I plan on sticking with the 3x ETFs, but if they get outlawed I've got a futures based version going in a paper trading account to learn/get a better appreciation of the trading mechanics that will be required if I have to go that route.

Kbg wrote:I don't do a standard PP, I do one that uses 3x ETFs as I want more growth .

Just in case someone new is reading this, and no offense at all to you, Kbg, but this is not a non-standard pp.
It is some non-pp strategy that needs a name.

Laker wrote:To be a bit snarky, gold is traded at the COMEX exchange. CBOE has a gold volatility product.

As far as it being a gambling product, you could also call IAU and GLD the same thing. You are relying on the exchange and clearing company blowing up or not. With all the regulation and capital requirements, the likelihood is the same as your need for that fully stocked doomsday bunker and plenty of guns. Of course, having gold in hand never hurt anyone.

I believe the COMEX claims to have about 1% of the contracts represented by physical gold.
I know that IAU and GLD claim to have 100% of their shares represented by physical gold.
I don't trust either of them very much, but COMEX doesn't even pretend to have the gold, so they are even less desirable in my opinion.

"I believe the COMEX claims to have about 1% of the contracts represented by physical gold.
I know that IAU and GLD claim to have 100% of their shares represented by physical gold.
I don't trust either of them very much, but COMEX doesn't even pretend to have the gold, so they are even less desirable in my opinion."

Well that is the nature of a derivative. The futures contracts do not pretend to have 100% of the physical gold. The ES contract possesses 0% of stock but is based off of the S&P 500 Index. When the contract expires there is no physical delivery along with several other financial derivative contracts. That is why they are a derivative. However, the trust should not fall on the percentage of assets claimed but on the ability to fulfill the stated contract. Therefore you need to look at the company or exchange/clearing firm behind the contracts and decide for yourself. If this is the route you are going to achieve your gold allocation, that is your judgement. Personally I have as much faith in the CME (COMEX) fulfilling these contracts as IAU or GLD. Decide for yourself.

dualstow wrote:

Kbg wrote:I don't do a standard PP, I do one that uses 3x ETFs as I want more growth .

Just in case someone new is reading this, and no offense at all to you, Kbg, but this is not a non-standard pp.
It is some non-pp strategy that needs a name.

I call it the leveraged PP VP .

No worries and no offense taken. In respect of what you point out tracking and in-depth discussion is all done in the VP section of the site.

What proof is there that BuillionVault has less than half the expense ratio of IAU which is already .25%? And is that all in costs or just storage alone? If all in, it makes Hard Assets Alliance look rather high by comparison. But I see that the bid/ask spread was was ignored. Last time I checked, HAA had a cheaper asking price than BV. Gold tends to cost more when bought in the EU than in the USA.

And then there is this ETF...

What type of gold can I receive?

Aside from the London Bars the Trust holds, investors may take delivery of 1 ounce coins and bars, as well as 10 ounce bars, such as:

1 oz American Gold Eagle coins
1 oz American Gold Buffalo coins
1 oz Australian Gold Kangoroo coins
1 oz Canadian Gold Maple Leaf coins
1 oz or 10 oz bars

For a listing of commonly requested coins and bars, including applicable Exchange Fees, please click here.

Formally, aside from being able to take delivery of London Bars, investors may request to have their shares exchanged for other gold bars and coins, without numismatic value, having a minimum fineness (or purity) of 995 parts per 1,000 (99.5%) or, for American Gold Eagle gold coins, with a minimum fineness of 91.67%.

http://www.merkgold.com/overview.html

However, the exchange fee minimums are pretty ridiculous, esentially around $50K worth of gold to be exchanged at once. That is much better than the other gold trust, though, which was like 100 or 1000 ounces.

MachineGhost wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:34 am What proof is there that BuillionVault has less than half the expense ratio of IAU which is already .25%? And is that all in costs or just storage alone?

Necrobump. https://www.bullionvault.com/help/tariff.html

Storage & insurance for as long as you hold.

0.12% per year on gold, billed monthly and subject to monthly minimum of $4.

So just $48/year provided you've $40,000 or more deposited. 0.6% for example if you already had gold deposited and left that as-is for 5 years.

For frequent traders it could be considered as the spread potentially being zero and the cost 0.1% to buy or sell + $300/year account fee; Arranged/presented as 0.5% buy or sell fee up to the first $75,000 traded in any one year, 0.1% thereafter (trade more than $825K in a year and that 0.1% reduces to 0.05%).

To withdraw a 100g bar you have to request for each such bar individually (risk reduction of it being prepared/packaged/posted (with insurance)). For example with 100g/gold recent price around GBP6000 the cost of the posted/insured bar to a UK address is GBP220 (3.7% cost). Or USD7600 100g gold recent price USD370 4.9% cost to have that delivered to US/Canada/rest of world.

To have your gold moved from one of their vaults to another is treated as a sell/repurchase motion, but you may be able to arrange for other methods, and I believe sometimes they have 'promotions' that lower the round-trip costs.

Note however that for physical delivery I believe they'll only post to the associated account holders name/address, so if for instance that was a US address and a GTFOOD event had you move to London, then you'd have to go through address change and proof of identity procedures first to have the accounts associated details updated before you could have the gold delivered to that London address. There are other options (and different costs) available for moving/withdrawing standard 400oz/bars.

I mentioned it in a more recent thread on this subject, but BullionStar also offers a fully allocated vaulting service with vaults in Singapore and the USA (in the Texas State Depository):

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