Gyroscopic Investing

MangoMan wrote:

Gabe wrote: Yeah, I'm not particularly militant. A few of the people I respect the most are deeply religious.

Yeah, me neither. Right up until the moment the deeply religious people start trying to convince you to embrace their beliefs. 

MangoMan,

If I am one of those people, I sincerely apologize.  I pretty sure there is no way another person can convince you, or me, to embrace their beliefs, regardless of what they believe.  As a Christian, I believe that only God can convince you via His Word and Holy Spirit.  So again, if you perceive I've done more than share God's Word, my worldview and why I hold it instead of another, I apologize.  As Bob Dylan so eloquently sang, "It ain't me babe, no, no, no it ain't me babe, it ain't me you're looking for, babe".    http://www.metrolyrics.com/it-aint-me-b ... .html  I think I've said a time or two  , I can only cast the seeds, it is completely up to God to nurture them if He chooses.

... M

Actually the relationship stuff is one of the reasons that of the few people I wish I could have met in person, it would have been Fred Rogers. He was such a genuine and honest man, and truly cared about you and about who you were on the inside, not the person you might be trying to be on the outside. He loved you for you and i think that regardless of your religious affiliation, it would be wonderful if we treated others more like Fred treated his common man.

Greg wrote: Actually the relationship stuff is one of the reasons that of the few people I wish I could have met in person, it would have been Fred Rogers. He was such a genuine and honest man, and truly cared about you and about who you were on the inside, not the person you might be trying to be on the outside. He loved you for you and i think that regardless of your religious affiliation, it would be wonderful if we treated others more like Fred treated his common man.

If you haven't read this book, Greg, I recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Faith-Mist ... 849918944/

Xan wrote:

Greg wrote: Actually the relationship stuff is one of the reasons that of the few people I wish I could have met in person, it would have been Fred Rogers. He was such a genuine and honest man, and truly cared about you and about who you were on the inside, not the person you might be trying to be on the outside. He loved you for you and i think that regardless of your religious affiliation, it would be wonderful if we treated others more like Fred treated his common man.

If you haven't read this book, Greg, I recommend it.
http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Faith-Mist ... 849918944/

Looks like a very interesting book. Thanks for the recommendation. 

MangoMan wrote: OMG. [That G is for goodness, not God.]

Not Ghost? 

curlew wrote: The title of this book was very interesting to me because I was once a Christian and I often "felt" the presence of God. Now that I'm no longer a believer I've been left wondering what that was all about. The author had similar experiences and so far he's doing a good job of explaining it. He doesn't believe in God but I would not say that he is asserting that God doesn't exist. He is just offering a natural explanation for why so many people are so firmly convinced that he does.

It was called self-delusion.  And people continue to believe in fairy tales because of a four-lettered word.

Greg wrote: Actually the relationship stuff is one of the reasons that of the few people I wish I could have met in person, it would have been Fred Rogers. He was such a genuine and honest man, and truly cared about you and about who you were on the inside, not the person you might be trying to be on the outside. He loved you for you and i think that regardless of your religious affiliation, it would be wonderful if we treated others more like Fred treated his common man.

Have you ever noticed the same yearnings that cause you to believe in your "God" is the same yearnings that cause you to seek out gooroos?

MangoMan wrote: Apology accepted. Look guys, I respect everyone here and consider you friends much more than someone thinks of a Facebook friend. I feel like everyone here is connected. But you just have to stop trying to convince people who aren't interested in being convinced. I don't care what you believe; why should you care what I believe or don't believe?

Because we're all altruists.  It's hard not to feel the pain in that someone else is self-deluded and vice versa.

MachineGhost wrote:

curlew wrote: The title of this book was very interesting to me because I was once a Christian and I often "felt" the presence of God. Now that I'm no longer a believer I've been left wondering what that was all about. The author had similar experiences and so far he's doing a good job of explaining it. He doesn't believe in God but I would not say that he is asserting that God doesn't exist. He is just offering a natural explanation for why so many people are so firmly convinced that he does.

It was called self-delusion.  And people continue to believe in fairy tales because of a four-lettered word.

I think it's a little more complicated than that.

Greg wrote: Aww I sure hope I'm the Greg you speak of, because it fills me with warm fuzzies. (And if not, I'll find fuzzies ideally somewhere) 

Just in time for Easter! 

MachineGhost wrote: And people continue to believe in fairy tales because of a four-letter word.

Wine?

dualstow wrote:

Greg wrote: Aww I sure hope I'm the Greg you speak of, because it fills me with warm fuzzies. (And if not, I'll find fuzzies ideally somewhere) 

Just in time for Easter! 

MachineGhost wrote: And people continue to believe in fairy tales because of a four-letter word.

Wine?

Or, Beer. 

... M

I almost went with beer. :-) Wine reminded me of Noah, though.

curlew wrote: I think it's a little more complicated than that.

It may be "complicated" or "complex" but it doesn't make a pig wearing lipstick anything but still a pig, though.

dualstow wrote: I almost went with beer. :-) Wine reminded me of Noah, though.

OK, do you think it is love or feel?  Do you feel wine, or feel beer?  Or love them both?  Lots of four letter words to choose from. 

... M

Mountaineer wrote:

dualstow wrote: I almost went with beer. :-) Wine reminded me of Noah, though.

OK, do you think it is love or feel?  Do you feel wine, or feel beer?  Or love them both?  Lots of four letter words to choose from. 

... M

Oh, I don't know. I just just know they make me more receptive to fairy tales. Especially Grimm's.

I really like the turn this conversation took.

Well, people are funny and complex.

Sometimes we try to help each other out, based on generosity/compassion.  But other times we play all sorts of funny games about being "right" or dominating in various ways, and many people operate from a fear-based mentality and are very judgemental.

With religion, these things are often mixed up together, and people claim they're operating from love and compassion, but it looks like fear/judgement/etc. to the rest of us.

Desert wrote:

jafs wrote: Well, people are funny and complex.

Sometimes we try to help each other out, based on generosity/compassion.  But other times we play all sorts of funny games about being "right" or dominating in various ways, and many people operate from a fear-based mentality and are very judgemental.

With religion, these things are often mixed up together, and people claim they're operating from love and compassion, but it looks like fear/judgement/etc. to the rest of us.

I think you're 100% correct, actually.  Further, I think sometimes even when I think I'm trying to help someone by disabusing them of some flawed viewpoint, my real motive is simply to be right.  Humans are flawed creatures, all the way down to our innermost motivations.  I'm not saying humans are incapable of honestly and generously offering help and advice, but I do agree that what we sometimes think is such is really from a less pure motivation.

I would sincerely hope the aim of conversing on this here sanctuary is to be objectively honest in providing facts, not shooting the shit around a poker table like a bunch of old women with curlers in their hair drinking cofee and smoking ciagarettes.  I don't think we tolerate people who want to impress, show off and be proven right very well, KShartle for example?  Maybe that weirdo that I missed, IDrinkBloodLOL? (wtf was that all about?)  Sometimes even technophile when he gets all-a-twitter about his gold bug doom porn.

Oh yeah and I'm an acquired taste.  I know who doesn't like me and I know why, but I'm gonna be mature about it.

MachineGhost wrote:

MangoMan wrote: Apology accepted. Look guys, I respect everyone here and consider you friends much more than someone thinks of a Facebook friend. I feel like everyone here is connected. But you just have to stop trying to convince people who aren't interested in being convinced. I don't care what you believe; why should you care what I believe or don't believe?

Because we're all altruists.  It's hard not to feel the pain in that someone else is self-deluded and vice versa.

I was thinking more about this today and the concept of a disability. For some, not believing in a particular religion could be considered as a "spiritual disability" that we want to help people overcome, much like that when we see someone in a wheelchair or someone who is deaf (physical disability), we want to help them to overcome this limitation.

The problem I look at is how you approach this. If you tell a physically disabled person, "you're broken, and I'm going to take pity on you and fix you", that might come off as quite arrogant. They may be okay with the way they are, perhaps they like the sign-language culture and it provides them something that is special and unique about them, and you're telling them that this is wrong and you should want to be "fixed".

This same issue then comes up for a religion. If you just tell someone that they are wrong and I'm going to take pity on you and help you, do we really think that the person being talked to like this is going to be receptive towards their help? Ultimately, I believe the best way we can help others is through showing that we genuinely care about the other person, and what they currently believe, and you are just providing them information in case they choose to make a different decision.

MangoMan wrote: Interesting analogy. Why is it okay for the deaf or wheelchair-bound person to not want to be 'fixed' but not okay for the atheist/agnostic to not want to be 'fixed'

My guess is because there is more at stake: an eternity vs a few decades of deafness. For a certain subset of believers, that's an eternity on the lake of fire.

I've heard proselytizers criticized from both ends: (1) How can you let your children be non-believers? You don't care if they burn in hell?
and
(2) Pretty much what you are asking, MangoMan.

As a non-believer, of course, I don't feel burdened by any of this.  But, I no longer criticize, since there is no answer that will please everyone.

MangoMan wrote:

dualstow wrote:

MangoMan wrote: Interesting analogy. Why is it okay for the deaf or wheelchair-bound person to not want to be 'fixed' but not okay for the atheist/agnostic to not want to be 'fixed'

My guess is because there is more at stake: an eternity vs a few decades of deafness. For a certain subset of believers, that's an eternity on the lake of fire.

Thanks, I'll take my chances. 

I'll even try answer the question from a worldly, non-religious perspective.  I would always try to save someone from committing suicide.  If I saw someone standing on the train platform ready to step off in front of a speeding train, I would do my best to save them.  Why?  Because I have an innate desire to help people, even those who for whatever reason, have lost their desire to live.  Is that wrong?  Perhaps from the point of view of the person wanting to harm themselves, but not from my perspective as one who values life.  I'm not sure I could live with myself if I stood idly by and watched a person die while I was pretty sure they had more to offer than their death.  Perhaps I'm somewhat like many of those in the healthcare or social work fields who have a desire to help others.  The short term pay is lousy however with frequently lots of "complaint department" feedback from angry agitated customers. 

... M

Mountaineer wrote: I'll even try answer the question from a worldly, non-religious perspective.  I would always try to save someone from committing suicide.  If I saw someone standing on the train platform ready to step off in front of a speeding train, I would do my best to save them.  Why?  Because I have an innate desire to help people, even those who for whatever reason, have lost their desire to live.  Is that wrong?  Perhaps from the point of view of the person wanting to harm themselves, but not from my perspective as one who values life.  I'm not sure I could live with myself if I stood idly by and watched a person die while I was pretty sure they had more to offer than their death.  Perhaps I'm somewhat like many of those in the healthcare or social work fields who have a desire to help others.  The short term pay is lousy however with frequently lots of "complaint department" feedback from angry agitated customers. 

... M

I'm Only Thinking of Him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKQSghkrAds

Mountaineer wrote:

MangoMan wrote:

dualstow wrote: My guess is because there is more at stake: an eternity vs a few decades of deafness. For a certain subset of believers, that's an eternity on the lake of fire.

Thanks, I'll take my chances. 

I'll even try answer the question from a worldly, non-religious perspective.  I would always try to save someone from committing suicide.  If I saw someone standing on the train platform ready to step off in front of a speeding train, I would do my best to save them.  Why?  Because I have an innate desire to help people, even those who for whatever reason, have lost their desire to live.  Is that wrong?  Perhaps from the point of view of the person wanting to harm themselves, but not from my perspective as one who values life.  I'm not sure I could live with myself if I stood idly by and watched a person die while I was pretty sure they had more to offer than their death.  Perhaps I'm somewhat like many of those in the healthcare or social work fields who have a desire to help others.  The short term pay is lousy however with frequently lots of "complaint department" feedback from angry agitated customers. 

... M

To extend your viewpoint more Mountaineer, this is one of the reasons why I'm interested in studying comparative religion so that ideally I will come to truth. If not, I would have such a worry that I could package a religion in a good enough way to entice someone to it and in turn, steer them away from the correct religion.

The analogy might be that as you said, I have my view that I don't want to see people kill themselves on the train platform. I just happen to have a mental defect though that makes me perceive that people dancing in place are actually trying to kill themselves instead and I tackle them to keep them from killing themselves (i.e. I have the wrong religion). In the process, I smack their head on the ground and accidentally kill them. (prevented them from finding the correct religion)

I have to make sure that when I'm trying to talk to others about religion (or staying alive in the metaphor above), that I am seeing things clearly and not causing the demise of someone else.

I completely understand and appreciate compassion and the desire to help people.

The problem is that a narrow religious viewpoint, taken very rigidly, turns a lot of other people into "folks who need help" if they don't happen to share that view.

And, there's a real arrogance to that - it assumes that your own view is correct, when these things aren't really possible to know with any certainty.

I used to talk with Jehovah's Witnesses when they came by, but stopped when I realized that it wasn't actually a conversation - they just waited for me to stop talking so they could convert me.

jafs wrote:when these things aren't really possible to know with any certainty.

How do you know THAT with any certainty?

You're doing exactly the same thing: assuming that your viewpoint is true, and then treating others based on your own view.