Gyroscopic Investing

Tortoise wrote: , Islam is more than just a religion--it is a total, all-encompassing way of life (religious, legal, etc.).

Pointedstick wrote: Oh I see what you mean. As in, "let's all just drop the violence!" is naive and unrealistic when barbarians aren't getting with the program.

Benko wrote: PS--OK I understand now.

Tortoise wrote: , Islam is more than just a religion--it is a total, all-encompassing way of life (religious, legal, etc.).

Yes that is why it is near impossible for us to comprehend.  To most of us religion is one thing and the rest of our life another.  But not Islam.
 
And I dont know of a way a civilized society can deal with the problem of Islam (strategic level).

TennPaGa wrote:

clacy wrote: Let's not pretend that the left has done any better on foreign policy since Obama's been in office.  Both sides deserve to be mocked. I can't think of one thing that either Bush or Obama has done really well, except maybe Bush recognizing that Rumsfeldt needed to go and the troop surge was needed to stablize Iraq.  Of course that was made to correct the mistake that he had previously made, so it's not worthy of any sort of recognition.

Some things have been better, some worse, IMO.

Leaving Iraq is good. Leaving Afghanistan is good. (Though I recognize that we still will have some troops left... better than the neocon policy).

Not getting involved in Syria was good.  Sure, it was a complete, bumbling accident that the U.S. didn't get involved, but I don't look a gift donkey in the mouth.

Getting involved in Libya was stupid, but if we are comparing the Red Team's fustercluck (Iraq+Afghanistan) to the Blue Team's (Libya), I think Obama wins.

More drone warfare is definitely bad.

Getting involved in the Ukraine is bad.

Antagonizing Russia is bad.

Also, none of this should be taken to mean that I approve of Obama's (or any other mainstream Dem's) foreign policy.

Mountaineer wrote: I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

Reub wrote: You have to deal with them the same way we dealt with the Nazi's. You have to obliterate them wherever you can. You sometimes have to make deals with bad people who also want to obliterate them. You also have to make certain that they are not infiltrating the homeland. Tighter borders, excluding immigration of certain groups of people. If they complain give them a big, loud SORRY!

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

How did they feel about athiests?

Mountaineer wrote: If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

Mountaineer wrote: I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

moda0306 wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: I may have mentioned this before.  Anyway, here it is again.

I took a course on Islam about 10 years ago taught by a US white male who had worked in most of the Islamic countries across north Africa, middle east and Indonesia at different points in his career which was in the oil and chemical industry.  The most telling comment that I remember from the course was the teacher said he had never met a Muslim, and he had met hundreds, who did not want to kill Christians and Jews.  They would do business and be cordial with you if it were to their advantage, but deep down the hatred was there and seething just below the surface.  Scary.  Few of us in the US can understand that kind of mindset.

... Mountaineer

So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

And judging by Reub's comments (and others I know with similar opinions about wiping out "the enemy"), I wonder if a deep-down hatred between the religions is something unique to Islam.  No... I know it is not.  I know a lot of people with a pretty seething hatred for Muslims.  It's not very "deep down."


I have no love for Islam as a religion.  It's some backward-ass stuff in both scripture (like the Old Testament) and practice (unlike most Christian behavior).  But it's not as unique as all the Bible thumpers would have us believe.  I heard many "Christians" claim we should nuke the Middle East even years after 9/11.  Their only hesitation was the lost value of the oil.  I'd say that there are a solid chunk of conservatives that essentially have the same opinion of what should be done with the Muslims of the world that most of the worst Muslims have towards the U.S.

So, Mountaineer, no, it's really not that hard for us in the U.S. to understand that kind of mindset.  We hear our uber-conservative buddies spew it quite often.

But unlike Bill Maher, I don't think religion CAUSES wars... I think it's just another tool people use to give themselves moral superiority over others, and can justify what they want to do, anyway... conquer, enrich, enslave, etc.  Nazi's did it with eugenics.  "Communist" Russia did it with atheism.  Government is also another tool sociopaths like to use. So I'm really not trying to bash religion.  I'm trying to bash the "team-making" that people try to get us caught up in, especially when the call to action is one of violence or hatred.

All this said, we need to significantly reduce immigration from Muslim countries, IMO.  I totally agree with people on that.  However, I'm going to respect (or not respect) people as individuals based on their values towards other peaceful people (whether they look/pray like them, or not)... rather then get in this dick-measuring contest between two religions that have, for centuries, been used by sociopaths and meglomaniacs to get people to feel more comfortable with killing "others" and stifled the progress of science (as well as true moral philosophy), and pretend I'm any different than a radical Muslim if I call for nuking the Middle East.

Ad Orientem wrote:

Kshartle wrote:

Mountaineer wrote: If I remember correctly, the instructor said they seemed to have a particular hatred for Christians and Jews though.

... Mountaineer

I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

This is the same logic that says the Christians and Jews are murderous crusaders who want to slaughter Muslims because they have done it for 1,000 years or so.

Kshartle wrote:

Ad Orientem wrote:

Kshartle wrote: I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

This is the same logic that says the Christians and Jews are murderous crusaders who want to slaughter Muslims because they have done it for 1,000 years or so.

Kshartle wrote:

Ad Orientem wrote:

Kshartle wrote: I wonder if it has anything to do with all the dictators the phony Christians and Jews support that rule over them and all the bombs dropped on their women and children by phony Christians and Jews.

Maybe that's all a coincindence but I've never been much of a coincidence theorist.

That theory holds water only as long as you ignore the history of Islam from its beginnings. In it's first couple of hundred years they converted a third of the then known world. And this was not done by handing out religious tracts on street corners. I strongly recommend this book for those who would like a primer in the history of Islam...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Prophet ... 1928653111

This is the same logic that says the Christians and Jews are murderous crusaders who want to slaughter Muslims because they have done it for 1,000 years or so.

Ad Orientem wrote: The problem is that there are too many people who think that murderous savages can be civilized if we just send then a gift subscription to Reason Magazine.

moda0306 wrote: So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

Kshartle wrote:

Ad Orientem wrote: The problem is that there are too many people who think that murderous savages can be civilized if we just send then a gift subscription to Reason Magazine.

This is a strawman argument.

MachineGhost wrote:

moda0306 wrote: So this guy happened to meet hundreds of Muslims who were open enough with him to share their "deep down" hatred (to the point of wishing death) of Christians and Jews?  Sounds like a lot of hyperbole to me.  No... hyperbole is the wrong world.  How about bold-faced lie.  I highly doubt he's being anywhere close to honest in his assertions.

Conflating extremist muslims with mainstream muslims is a very common tactic with religious believers, especially fundamentalists.  It acts as some kind of self-validity and self-justification.  Whoosh goes the magacian's hands and a dove appears where there was none before!

Kshartle wrote: Saying the alternative to invading is allowing yourself to be overrun ignores the possibility of preparing to defend yourself. A lot of you are making this false argument and convincing yourself it's correct.