Correction Ahead

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MachineGhost
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Re: Correction Ahead

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kka wrote: It will be interesting to watch things play out this year.  On one hand, MachineGhost tells us bonds will rally while stocks and gold tank, and kshartle is convinced the exact opposite will occur (see http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/bo ... /#msg92357).  I'll acknowledge I don't know what will happen and continue to hold all 3 as well as cash, rebalancing as needed.  So far this year, gold +8%, bonds +9%, stocks -1%.
There's no question that inflation may be baked into the cake due to logistical realities of clawing back the monetary base, but its not going to happen in this cycle because we are still fighting off deflation and barely winning.  Deflation is really a poorly understood term that means people have lost confidence in their future economic prospects because taking no investment risk is higher value than the net present value of a future stream of discounted cash flows.  We could be at that point now with all assets priced to deliver close to 0% returns in the long-term.  Risk-free cash and risk-free bonds are king.  Witness Japan.

Inflation simply cannot happen when confidence is low and everyone is fleeing from shore to shore to find safety from imploding bubbles, especially when it involves sovereign debt.  We have a few more bubbles (stocks, high yield bonds, etc.) to pop before we can hit rock bottom and reset for an inflationary expansion featuring genuine productivity growth.  The Fed and Beltway have been getting a free ride from the shale oil and gas boom even though its done diddley squat to faciliate it.
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Re: Correction Ahead

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Kshartle wrote: We could very well have another 2008 (although I doubt the Fed will allow it). The point is even if we do I expect a bazooka of inflation to incinerate the bonds and propel Gold farther than almost anyone can expect.
The Fed works as The Wizard of Oz.  It has no mechansim to effect the REAL economy, so it will have very little effect against stopping bubbles from collapsing (when has it ever?) such as high yield bonds or China's real estate.  I imagine you're also probably unaware of how tiny the Fed really is in the global sea of finance.  The Fed is like a dinky life raft with a committee of 12 pompous politicians shouting out into the wide open blue sea, floating next to a magnificent modern cruise liner zooming by, threatening to overswamp the raft in its wake.  The audacity of hope.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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MachineGhost
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Re: Correction Ahead

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Here's some interesting screenshots:

Image
EDV

Image
TLT

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My 1942-2014 30-year CMT

Image
DecisionMoose annualized returns

As shown above, we have some significant upside resistance before bonds can have clear sailing.  So there's still room for a fake out and reversal to occur.  Can't be too careful in this Wizard of Oz market.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
Reub
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Reub »

Thank you for the wonderful charts and helping us revisit our youth through the Wizard of Oz analogy, MG! :)
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Re: Correction Ahead

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MachineGhost wrote:
Kshartle wrote: We could very well have another 2008 (although I doubt the Fed will allow it). The point is even if we do I expect a bazooka of inflation to incinerate the bonds and propel Gold farther than almost anyone can expect.
The Fed works as The Wizard of Oz.  It has no mechansim to effect the REAL economy, so it will have very little effect against stopping bubbles from collapsing (when has it ever?) such as high yield bonds or China's real estate.  I imagine you're also probably unaware of how tiny the Fed really is in the global sea of finance.  The Fed is like a dinky life raft with a committee of 12 pompous politicians shouting out into the wide open blue sea, floating next to a magnificent modern cruise liner zooming by, threatening to overswamp the raft in its wake.  The audacity of hope.
I have no hope that the FED will help the economy. I've said over and over they cannot because printing slips of paper can't help the economy. If it could every economy in the world would grow relentlessly.

The FED can in fact blow bubbles and prevent them from popping by blowing enough air in them. Just because they let them pop or pop them doesn't mean they have to. All the cheap money blew up the housing bubble. Then they raised rates in quarter point increments and popped it. Now they've reflated it and created what I think is a bond bubble and possibly a stock bubble. Of course we'll see. Bubbles are tricky to spot.

You think the FED won't react with a bigger bond buying program if the market sells off 15-20% or do you think the market will just ignore it?

Do you think stock and bond prices would be where they are at now if the FED had not launched QE at all? What about the value of the dollar? 
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by kka »

Kshartle wrote:
kka wrote: It will be interesting to watch things play out this year.  On one hand, MachineGhost tells us bonds will rally while stocks and gold tank, and kshartle is convinced the exact opposite will occur (see http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/bo ... /#msg92357).  I'll acknowledge I don't know what will happen and continue to hold all 3 as well as cash, rebalancing as needed.  So far this year, gold +8%, bonds +9%, stocks -1%.
* I consider anything under 1.5 years short term and short term guesses.......guesses.

I shun bonds and embrace gold and stocks based on what I expect over the next ten years.....not ten months.
I believe you've been preaching the death of bonds since joining this forum around 2 1/2 years ago.  And this is a PP forum, where I suspect that most of the visitors are more risk averse than you, and yet you unequivocally assert (in the Bonds section no less) that they should sell their bonds to buy gold and stocks, but fail to mention that it's really a guess that is still "correct" regardless of what happens over the next 1.5 years or more?  Sheesh.
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Re: Correction Ahead

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kka wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
kka wrote: It will be interesting to watch things play out this year.  On one hand, MachineGhost tells us bonds will rally while stocks and gold tank, and kshartle is convinced the exact opposite will occur (see http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/bo ... /#msg92357).  I'll acknowledge I don't know what will happen and continue to hold all 3 as well as cash, rebalancing as needed.  So far this year, gold +8%, bonds +9%, stocks -1%.
* I consider anything under 1.5 years short term and short term guesses.......guesses.

I shun bonds and embrace gold and stocks based on what I expect over the next ten years.....not ten months.
I believe you've been preaching the death of bonds since joining this forum around 2 1/2 years ago.  And this is a PP forum, where I suspect that most of the visitors are more risk averse than you, and yet you unequivocally assert (in the Bonds section no less) that they should sell their bonds to buy gold and stocks, but fail to mention that it's really a guess that is still "correct" regardless of what happens over the next 1.5 years or more?  Sheesh.
Anybody who thinks they can reliably predict what's going to happen over the next 1.5 years or so is guessing in my opinion. I have no problem with that....but I see you're not chiding MG when says he's ditching stocks and gold and going all cash and bonds for the correction/crash he thinks is on the horizon.

I've never said I expect the immanent death of bonds let alone have I preached it. That's a distortion with the language. When people disagree with you do you think they are preaching or screaming or droning or something. It can never be that they have a actual opinion based on thought and reason right?

I've given detailed analysis repeatedly for why I think there's no way to expect a real return in bonds over the long run which I've said repeatedly is 10 years plus. And that if people really feel that scared about buying them maybe they should trust their gut rather than blindly following the PP like a zombie robot. Particularly if they can handle volatility and have a longer investing horizon. Have you read any of that in my posts? I've also said if they are short-term investors or cannot handle anything but very low volatility then the HBPP is right for them. It's not for me right now for all the reasons I have explained in detail.

I believe that's exactly what MG is in fact advocating about based on his expectations. The difference is he thinks LTBs are the right call now and his outlook is very short term. Fine by me. I'm an adult so I don't just act on what I read on a forum.

Most everyone here is an adult who can make their own decisions. This is forum where people discuss economics, investments and everything else under the sun. I'm sorry if anyone sold their bonds based on my preaching and now regret it but we are mostly adults here and this is a discussion forum. 

* My "guess" for TLT for 2014 was down 18% so it's way off so far.  I think this represents long-term rates of 5% or so. I don't know if that qualifies as preaching the death of bonds. I certainly haven't shorted them nor would I advocate anyone doing that.
Last edited by Kshartle on Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correction Ahead

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Kshartle wrote: You think the FED won't react with a bigger bond buying program if the market sells off 15-20% or do you think the market will just ignore it?

Do you think stock and bond prices would be where they are at now if the FED had not launched QE at all? What about the value of the dollar?
At some point it won't matter what the Fed does because it is pushing on a string.  It can increase bank reserves all it wants and fix the FIRE economy.  The market isn't the REAL economy.  That's my point.  The constraints on economic growth is lack of confidence, not illiquidity. 

If the Fed hadn't launched QE, we wouldn't be in a race to zero nominal yields, so now I don't believe ALL assets would be where they are without QE.  As long as people believe in The Wizard of Oz, they will act accordingly, until they don't.  QE changes nothing in the REAL economy.  It's all smoke and mirrors.

Besides, how is the Fed constantly intervening with its hoodoo voodoo supportive of your deflationary scenario where gold becomes king?
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Correction Ahead

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Kshartle wrote: Anybody who thinks they can reliably predict what's going to happen over the next 1.5 years or so is guessing in my opinion. I have no problem with that....but I see you're not chiding MG when says he's ditching stocks and gold and going all cash and bonds for the correction/crash he thinks is on the horizon.
Woah, Nelly!  I never said I was "ditching" stocks and gold.  I've ceased fully implementing the PP.  Big difference.  First came the gold, here comes the stocks.

But if I were fully invested, I wouldn't sell the stocks or gold until I had the signals to do so.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by goodasgold »

"Correction ahead?" Yes, a correction is always ahead, as are major jumps in the market. Which will happen first, and when the reverse will inevitably occur afterwards, I don't have a clue.

Takeaway: For this reason I invest most of my portfolio in the PP.  ;)
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Re: Correction Ahead

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D1984: Global Financial Data has a USA 30-year Government Total Return Index going back to 1919.  Why don't you purchase that?  Their other series of yields just appear to be from FRED.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote:
Kshartle wrote: Anybody who thinks they can reliably predict what's going to happen over the next 1.5 years or so is guessing in my opinion. I have no problem with that....but I see you're not chiding MG when says he's ditching stocks and gold and going all cash and bonds for the correction/crash he thinks is on the horizon.
Woah, Nelly!  I never said I was "ditching" stocks and gold.  I've ceased fully implementing the PP.  Big difference.  First came the gold, here comes the stocks.

But if I were fully invested, I wouldn't sell the stocks or gold until I had the signals to do so.
Ohhh my Bad....I thought you said you were going with 25% long bonds and the rest in cash except for a little in gold stocks.

I based it on this comment:

"I'm currently 61%-87.5% in cash depending on the portfolio in question.  No stock exposure in any portfolio other than a small percentage to gold stocks. "
Last edited by Kshartle on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correction Ahead

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MachineGhost wrote:
Kshartle wrote: You think the FED won't react with a bigger bond buying program if the market sells off 15-20% or do you think the market will just ignore it?

Do you think stock and bond prices would be where they are at now if the FED had not launched QE at all? What about the value of the dollar?
At some point it won't matter what the Fed does because it is pushing on a string.  It can increase bank reserves all it wants and fix the FIRE economy.  The market isn't the REAL economy.  That's my point.  The constraints on economic growth is lack of confidence, not illiquidity. 

If the Fed hadn't launched QE, we wouldn't be in a race to zero nominal yields, so now I don't believe ALL assets would be where they are without QE.  As long as people believe in The Wizard of Oz, they will act accordingly, until they don't.  QE changes nothing in the REAL economy.  It's all smoke and mirrors.

Besides, how is the Fed constantly intervening with its hoodoo voodoo supportive of your deflationary scenario where gold becomes king?
I don't understand your question MG and I want to. You think the constraint on economic growth is lack of confidence? Confidence in what? I agree sort of. Few are confident they can engage in economic activity and generate a profit for themself. That is the basis of economic activity, the ability to reap the rewards of your efforts. High taxes, excessive regulation and declining affluence of consumers as they choose to go on disability or welfare or unemployment rather than work have created the low confidence.

The low confidence in not unfounded. Business people recognize the reality of the bad economy even if they don't understand what's creating it. It's not their belief though that's making it bad, imo.

If I understand your last question correctly I think the Fed or the government directly will be printing money in larger and larger quantities to support government spending, adding trillions and trillions per year to enable growing government deficits. Persistant high inflation and at some point rising rates (bond sales) to prevent ultra negative real rates will compound this. The dollar I hope will ultimately be saved (since we aren't ready for anarchy) but it may knocked off it's pedastal or at least go through a crisis causing a blow-off top in gold, significantly higher than the 2011 high.

All that being said I'd prefer the fed raise rates now, end QE tomorrow and let the recession happen. Let bankrupt businesses go under and the assets be realocated. Reign in all the wastful government spending. Let the economy go to a market-driven model vs. the 5-year Soviet plans we're on. My investments would get crushed but so what. The near term would suck but everyone would come through it and there would be sustainable growth ahead.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by MachineGhost »

Kshartle wrote: "I'm currently 61%-87.5% in cash depending on the portfolio in question.  No stock exposure in any portfolio other than a small percentage to gold stocks. "
I guess I should have been more explicit.  In fact, I just allocated 6% to an alternative investment in the equity space yesterday, so now that portfolio is 81.5%. ;D
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correction Ahead

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Kshartle wrote: I don't understand your question MG and I want to. You think the constraint on economic growth is lack of confidence? Confidence in what? I agree sort of. Few are confident they can engage in economic activity and generate a profit for themself. That is the basis of economic activity, the ability to reap the rewards of your efforts. High taxes, excessive regulation and declining affluence of consumers as they choose to go on disability or welfare or unemployment rather than work have created the low confidence.

The low confidence in not unfounded. Business people recognize the reality of the bad economy even if they don't understand what's creating it. It's not their belief though that's making it bad, imo.

If I understand your last question correctly I think the Fed or the government directly will be printing money in larger and larger quantities to support government spending, adding trillions and trillions per year to enable growing government deficits. Persistant high inflation and at some point rising rates (bond sales) to prevent ultra negative real rates will compound this. The dollar I hope will ultimately be saved (since we aren't ready for anarchy) but it may knocked off it's pedastal or at least go through a crisis causing a blow-off top in gold, significantly higher than the 2011 high.

All that being said I'd prefer the fed raise rates now, end QE tomorrow and let the recession happen. Let bankrupt businesses go under and the assets be realocated. Reign in all the wastful government spending. Let the economy go to a market-driven model vs. the 5-year Soviet plans we're on. My investments would get crushed but so what. The near term would suck but everyone would come through it and there would be sustainable growth ahead.
I thought I explained confidence already?  Musta been in another thread.  If a human being values the net present value of their cash higher than the net present value of a discounted stream of future cash flows from investments (equities, bonds, gold, etc.) then it reflects a lack of confidence in future economic prospects.  Risk taking becomes nil.  That's how I see things right now in fact...  overvalued equities, decreasing demand for gold post-peak...  bonds still in flux.  Doesn't leave much to do other than be in cash.

Now, if you listen to historical revisionist doom porners like Harry Dent, you would think that the US's present struggles in constantly flirting with recession is all related to a demographic spending shift, but in reality its a lot more complex than that.  Japan is in a similar situation but they have very few ways out of the pickle compared to the US.  I recently read that about 29% of Japanese don't bother to date, have sex or get married and 41% of married couples don't bother to have sex.  Not that there's anything wrong with that!  But on a whole it reflects very low confidence, because they simply cannot afford to have children.

The USA will soon-to-be have energy independence from oil and shale drilling as well as that cheap energy attracting the manufacturing sector back, ongoing consumer technological innovation, Hollywood movie exports and designer apparel brands still going for us.  Certainly, the government not being pro-growth accomodative is a large negative factor, but blaming "lazy" people for receiving a pittance of income transfers is like pouring salt onto a wound.  Don't conflate symptoms with causes.  We could be even more redistributative and it wouldn't change a single thing other than be more a lot more humane.

The only way we will have inflation that you envision of is if the Fed doesn't claw back the monetary base or pay a rate of interest to prevent it from all being lending out by the banks in an economic recovery where confidence has been restored.  Until that point, it can monetize trillions or zillions in government spending to no effect.  The only constraint into hyperinflation is the productive capacity of the economy and tax collection.

The Fed bureaucrats aren't stupid, those people have investments also.  They're going to wait until the economy recovers before they end QE and claw back the monetary base....  it has to float off a rising tide of confidence so it doesn't dig a deeper hole.  But they are making the job harder by intervening and causing malinvestment into FIRE rather than REAL.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by dragoncar »

MachineGhost wrote: FIRE rather than REAL.
Can you expand on this or at least give me some words to Google?
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote: blaming "lazy" people for receiving a pittance of income transfers is like pouring salt onto a wound.  Don't conflate symptoms with causes.  We could be even more redistributative and it wouldn't change a single thing other than be more a lot more humane.

The only way we will have inflation that you envision of is if the Fed doesn't claw back the monetary base or pay a rate of interest to prevent it from all being lending out by the banks in an economic recovery where confidence has been restored.  Until that point, it can monetize trillions or zillions in government spending to no effect.  The only constraint into hyperinflation is the productive capacity of the economy and tax collection.
I don't blame people for taking a check offered to them. This is a straw man argument. When you say "We could be even more redistributive and it wouldn't change a single thing other than be more a lot more humane." do you mean the government could send out larger checks to more people? You don't think that would decrease employment, productivity and the economy? It would be stealing from producers to reward non-producers. Of course it would make things worse. How is it humane to rob someone, keep half then hand the other half to some stranger to buy their vote?

How can you say there is no effect, the effects are all around us. Have you noticed who the president is? How about the record number of people on welfare, food stamps, disability and unemployment. Might those government wealth redistribution programs be contributing to the lowest labor participation rate in over 3 decades? Might that have something to do with the sluggish economy where "confidence" as you say is low?

To the second point you are saying hyperinflation can't occur until there is an economic recovery? Hyperinflation does not occur in strong economies it occurs in weak ones. If the fed prints zillions of dollars to permit government spending of course we'll have hyperinflation. Who would hold onto dollars If they are printing zillions per year? Interest rates would have to be in the ummmm.......bazillions?

Incidentally I've always said I don't expect hyperinflation, I expect this to all end in deflation eventually. For some reason when I say I expect the fed to print trillions more and gold to surge past the 2011 high the retort is always that I'm predicting hyperinflation. That straw man argument is constantly thrown out here. If someone says they expect increasing inflation and rise in the price of gold and other things at an increasing rate the hyper-inflation staw man is brought out to be knocked down as if it's a valid response. It's like someone arguing against welfare and the response is "ohhh so you advocate the poor starving to death?"
Last edited by Kshartle on Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by MachineGhost »

Kshartle wrote: I don't blame people for taking a check offered to them. This is a straw man argument. When you say "We could be even more redistributive and it wouldn't change a single thing other than be more a lot more humane." do you mean the government could send out larger checks to more people? You don't think that would decrease employment, productivity and the economy? It would be stealing from producers to reward non-producers. Of course it would make things worse. How is it humane to rob someone, keep half then hand the other half to some stranger to buy their vote?
We live in a statist reality and have been since Lincoln.  Everything is theft by a thousand cuts.  A moral argument about that is not going to win the day when the bigger moral and immediate issue is that people are struggling for jobs, healthcare and retirement.  You have to do triage first before you can first reform the patient!  But no, I don't think more transfer payments alone are going to fundamentally change people's confidence.  Government is simply terrible at improving productivity.  But the free market is no saint either.  Greed is the worst form of moral imperative ever devised, except for all the others.
How can you say there is no effect, the effects are all around us. Have you noticed who the president is? How about the record number of people on welfare, food stamps, disability and unemployment. Might those government wealth redistribution programs be contributing to the lowest labor participation rate in over 3 decades? Might that have something to do with the sluggish economy where "confidence" as you say is low?
Again, symptoms not causes.  And these transfer payments amount to a pittance.  Food stamps average $150 per month and you must be under the poverty level with no assets beyond a house, car, furniture, etc..  And I'd be a little more careful about lumping disability in with welfare.  Like SS, it is earnings-based from employment, not welfare.  Entitlement is about fairness, welfare is about poverty.  I agree that unemployment (which is a pseudo-entitlement) is a disgrace because it is too little money disconnected from earnings power at the same time it doesn't involve mandatory job retraining.  You merely have to demonstrate you're "looking for work" by cutting out classified ads.  Hysterical.  In that case, then yeah it probably deserves to be only $900 a week, but again people are struggling, though probably not in the same league as the impoverished.

I'm a strong advocate of doing away with all welfare and entitlements and replacing it with a basic Citizen's Dividend of $2500 a month or whatever would get all levels of government out of the whole meddling business.  Good luck, Switzerland!
To the second point you are saying hyperinflation can't occur until there is an economic recovery? Hyperinflation does not occur in strong economies it occurs in weak ones. If the fed prints zillions of dollars to permit government spending of course we'll have hyperinflation. Who would hold onto dollars If they are printing zillions per year? Interest rates would have to be in the ummmm.......bazillions?

Hyperinflation can only occur if a country's productive capacity is so decimated that there's no effective free market anymore.  A "weak economy" is not severe enough.  And it never happens to the world's core economy anyway, only tertiary economies because capital flight seeks safety in the core.  It may be a little different in these modern timees with "major world currencies" compared to history, so there's more options but the USA is still the world's core economy and still #1.  That's confidence.
Incidentally I've always said I don't expect hyperinflation, I expect this to all end in deflation eventually. For some reason when I say I expect the fed to print trillions more and gold to surge past the 2011 high the retort is always that I'm predicting hyperinflation. That straw man argument is constantly thrown out here. If someone says they expect increasing inflation and rise in the price of gold and other things at an increasing rate the hyper-inflation staw man is brought out to be knocked down as if it's a valid response. It's like someone arguing against welfare and the response is "ohhh so you advocate the poor starving to death?"
Well, a deflationary scenario isn't bullish for gold, only cash, so I don't see how you can be a gold bug doom porner from that perspective.  Nor do I see cash of the world's core economy hyperinflating into worthlessness short of a World War III or extraterrestrial invasion.  So here's your chance to clear it up, what exactly are you forecasting?
Last edited by MachineGhost on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote: A moral argument about that is not going to win the day when the bigger moral and immediate issue is that people are struggling for jobs, healthcare and retirement.  You have to do triage first before you can first reform the patient!  But no, I don't think more transfer payments alone are going to fundamentally change people's confidence.  Government is simply terrible at improving productivity.
The point is the "triage" is what is making the patient sick. The government intervention in the economy is what is ruining it that includes the welfare payments and all the paying people to not work. More of this "medicine" just makes it worse. A better analogy would be "Before the patient can improve they have to stop doing the things making them sick".

Government is terrible at improving productivity because it's actions are aimed at decreasing productivity. It punishes value creation by stealing from the producers and reduces opportunity by outlawing tons of potential economic activity. It requires licenses and pay offs (which need to be renewed) before people can engage in "acceptable" economic activity. It puts you at extreme risk of legal actions if you choose to employ your fellow human and mandates the type of compensation your employees will get even if neither party wants that.
Kshartle
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
How can you say there is no effect, the effects are all around us. Have you noticed who the president is? How about the record number of people on welfare, food stamps, disability and unemployment. Might those government wealth redistribution programs be contributing to the lowest labor participation rate in over 3 decades? Might that have something to do with the sluggish economy where "confidence" as you say is low?
Again, symptoms not causes.  And these transfer payments amount to a pittance.  Food stamps average $150 per month and you must be under the poverty level with no assets beyond a house, car, furniture, etc..  And I'd be a little more careful about lumping disability in with welfare.  Like SS, it is earnings-based from employment, not welfare.  Entitlement is about fairness, welfare is about poverty.  I agree that unemployment (which is a pseudo-entitlement) is a disgrace because it is too little money disconnected from earnings power at the same time it doesn't involve mandatory job retraining.  You merely have to demonstrate you're "looking for work" by cutting out classified ads.  Hysterical.  In that case, then yeah it probably deserves to be only $900 a week, but again people are struggling, though probably not in the same league as the impoverished.
You're counting the dollar cost of paying people to not work like that is the true cost of these programs. It is not. The true cost is the lost productivity if people actually chose to work rather than take the checks from government. They go from potential producers which would lower costs and enable a higher standard of living for everyone and turn into pure dependents, little baby birds with their mouths open.

People take the checks because it's their best option. How does this help the economy again? You think it's moral to help people who are truly needy. I agree. That's not the result of these programs. They create poverty and joblessness which results in higher prices for everyone, less savings, less investment in property plant equipment technology etc. to increase future productivity.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote:
Kshartle wrote: To the second point you are saying hyperinflation can't occur until there is an economic recovery? Hyperinflation does not occur in strong economies it occurs in weak ones. If the fed prints zillions of dollars to permit government spending of course we'll have hyperinflation. Who would hold onto dollars If they are printing zillions per year? Interest rates would have to be in the ummmm.......bazillions?

Hyperinflation can only occur if a country's productive capacity is so decimated that there's no effective free market anymore.  A "weak economy" is not severe enough.  And it never happens to the world's core economy anyway, only tertiary economies because capital flight seeks safety in the core.  It may be a little different in these modern timees with "major world currencies" compared to history, so there's more options but the USA is still the world's core economy and still #1.  That's confidence.
You said that hyperinflation will only happen if the economy recovers and now you're saying it happens when productive capacity is decimated. I didn't claim a "weak economy" is what causes hyperinflation, that is a straw man. I simply disagreed with you that hyperinflation happens in recovering growing economies. Now it seems you are disagreeing with yourself. Maybe I misunderstood. Here's the quote:

"The only way we will have inflation that you envision of is if the Fed doesn't claw back the monetary base or pay a rate of interest to prevent it from all being lending out by the banks in an economic recovery where confidence has been restored.  Until that point, it can monetize trillions or zillions in government spending to no effect."

I do agree with you that the money creation is what causes hyperinflation, whether it's by the Fed or keeping rates solidly negative through it's interventions but again this happens in a weak economy (you called it decimated) not a recovering one.

I'm glad we can keep our dissagreements civil. If I point out straw men it's only because I want to be clear these are not arguments I've made.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote: Well, a deflationary scenario isn't bullish for gold, only cash, so I don't see how you can be a gold bug doom porner from that perspective.  Nor do I see cash of the world's core economy hyperinflating into worthlessness short of a World War III or extraterrestrial invasion.  So here's your chance to clear it up, what exactly are you forecasting?
How is a gold-bug doom porner different philosophically from a bond-bug doom-porner? How much in cash are you? Will the real doom porner please stand up?  :o

If I was a "doom-porner" or whatever I wouldn't have half my money in stocks.

Forecast: The US economy will continue to decline. Welfare rolls will increase, taxes will increase, the middle class will shrink, government spending as a percentage of GDP will increase, government debt is going to grow faster and faster, the boomers are going to retire (or try to), labor participation is going to fall.

All this will require lots of money printing and ZRIP. That's the route the government will go as long as they can. This will drive gold up and even stocks. Bonds will not be able to keep pace with inflation.

Eventually the dollar will start falling rapidly, particularly as all foreign creditors refuse to continue subsidizing American consumption.

That's the tipping point, either.....

1. hyperinflation after that when the government runs the presses day and night (I hope not and assign very little chance of this)

2.Inflation will be a national scandal, the biggest issue and inflation fighting will be a winning campaign issue, even bigger than promising more handouts and a Paul Volker - style fed or treasury secretary or whoever at that point stops the presses and starts raising rates aggressively. This will crash the phony economy and probably force the government to restructure it's debt. Wealth will flow to people holding cash safely and gold (even if the price drops). The dollar will come back from the depths.


So it's inflation in the short-run (next couple years). The timing is impossible to predict but I see nothing to suggest a change in expectations unless the fed is lying about continuing to target a CPI of 2% and full employment. They can get one but not the other because the more they print the more Obama will clamor for $10.10 min wage.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by MachineGhost »

Kshartle wrote:
You said that hyperinflation will only happen if the economy recovers and now you're saying it happens when productive capacity is decimated. I didn't claim a "weak economy" is what causes hyperinflation, that is a straw man. I simply disagreed with you that hyperinflation happens in recovering growing economies. Now it seems you are disagreeing with yourself. Maybe I misunderstood. Here's the quote:
I do agree with you that the money creation is what causes hyperinflation, whether it's by the Fed or keeping rates solidly negative through it's interventions but again this happens in a weak economy (you called it decimated) not a recovering one.
I think you're misreading hyperinflation into inflation.  They are distinct phenomena with distinct causes.  Would you have classified the stagflation of the 1970's as hyperinflation when it reached 16% under the 1980 CPI methodology?  Fear was aplenty back then, even though the productive capacity of the USA was not by any stretch of the imagination under threat.

The Fed doesn't create money in the sense you're thinking of.  It has an internal use only accounting entry credit called "bank reserves" that has no use or function outside the Fed system and in the real economy.  Unproductive fiscal spending is the root cause of inflation because under a debt-based monetary system, all forms of money must first be spent into existence as debt.  In our system of governance, that is reserved to the will of Congress.  The Fed merely decides whether the public holds currency or bonds issued by the Treasury (crowding out effect of monetization).  If Congress decided to pay striking (unproductive) workers in try-ply sheets of toilet paper issued directly by the Treasury bypassing the Fed, it would still be highly inflationary.  As I mentioned before, The Fed is The Wizard of Oz.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by Kshartle »

MachineGhost wrote:
Kshartle wrote:
You said that hyperinflation will only happen if the economy recovers and now you're saying it happens when productive capacity is decimated. I didn't claim a "weak economy" is what causes hyperinflation, that is a straw man. I simply disagreed with you that hyperinflation happens in recovering growing economies. Now it seems you are disagreeing with yourself. Maybe I misunderstood. Here's the quote:
I do agree with you that the money creation is what causes hyperinflation, whether it's by the Fed or keeping rates solidly negative through it's interventions but again this happens in a weak economy (you called it decimated) not a recovering one.
I think you're misreading hyperinflation into inflation.  They are distinct phenomena with distinct causes.  Would you have classified the stagflation of the 1970's as hyperinflation when it reached 16% under the 1980 CPI methodology? NOFear was aplenty back then, even though the productive capacity of the USA was not by any stretch of the imagination under threat.

The Fed doesn't create money in the sense you're thinking of.  It has an internal use only accounting entry credit called "bank reserves" that has no use or function outside the Fed system and in the real economy.  Unproductive fiscal spending is the root cause of inflation because under a debt-based monetary system, all forms of money must first be spent into existence as debt.  This is my point. The government keeps spending more and more above tax collection. Maybe the Fed "enables" the borrowing and creates artificial demand for treasuries or not. The bond-buying programs help enable deficit spending because it lowers interest by creating demand for treasuries.....but it's not necessary for the government's inflation program to continue and grow. Sometimes I refer to the fed and sometimes I just call the entire thing the government. I see very little distinction. If the fed didn't do what the government wanted the government can just go over and arrest them, fire them, assassinate them, dissolve them etc. They are two sides of the same coin to me. In our system of governance, that is reserved to the will of Congress.  The Fed merely decides whether the public holds currency or bonds issued by the Treasury (crowding out effect of monetization).  If Congress decided to pay striking (unproductive) workers in try-ply sheets of toilet paper issued directly by the Treasury bypassing the Fed, it would still be highly inflationary.  As I mentioned before, The Fed is The Wizard of Oz.
Last edited by Kshartle on Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Correction Ahead

Post by portart »

It never ceases to amaze me how much control the Fed has over the markets. With the exception of major corrections which they also can bring back, they can and do manipulate markets beyond what you or I could do with our own personal money using similar tactics (keep borrowing, perhaps print some new money and control the rate you pay on your loans).

Trying to predict what a market will do under certain economic situations almost never works on any timetable. Often the more dire it looks, the longer it goes up and visa versa. I like PP for one main reason, low volatility and 9% average gains over the long haul. I didn't get any gain last year and I am up 4.5% this year so it's not doing it's thing right now. If you believe in the PP system, the only way it is going to get back on track to the long term averages is if gold goes back up to new highs and holds them long enough for you to rebalance. So if you believe in all this, you HAVE to keep your gold percentage in tact through hell and high water because general market gains won't do it at only a 25% allocation. Cash is paying zippo and bonds, when they rally, are capped from lower then historical rates.
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